20 replies to this topic

[Cannon]

Now that we've had time to experiment with Zenith ratings, we feel that the best representation of the difficulty as compared to a CoC gripper is to align the strap with the middle of the gripper handle.  If others who rate grippers would like information on conforming to our process, feel free to email for details and photos.  

 

As an example, if you rate a Zenith #3 at the end of the handle, the rating is down below 100 pounds.  By aligning the strap with the trade dress in the middle of the handle, the rating goes to about 135 pounds.  When closed in the hand, we feel this is a good estimation of the required closing power.  This also solves another problem of safety.  When using the end of the handle, the strap easily glides right off the end of the barrel-shaped smooth handle.  

 

We will update the published ratings for Zenith as we gather more data.  For now, they've been set to match their CoC counterpart to align with IronMind's intent that a Zenith #3 would compliment training for the CoC #3.    

 

[Mighty Joe]

Matt, if you take a 1" square piece of flexible rubber and place over the end of the top handle this solves the

safety issue of the strap flying off. I've done this with smooth handle grippers and it works great. As a test

I tried pulling the strap off the handle after loading the weight onto the loading pin and it would have took 

some effort to slide it off for sure. Even with the tapered handles the strap won't come off. At least not with

the lighter weights used on the Zeniths.

 

Your suggestion begs the question of why not rate all grippers this way? Plus it creates the problem of confusion

of an already well established rating system that most all if not all have agreed upon. Even though COC's were originally

rated at the center of the handles (years ago) this method of rating is not currently used by anyone I know of. Is this method wrong? Not necessarily! It's just not preferred any longer. Is the current method of rating wrong? Not necessarily, 

but it seems to be the preferred method of which the majority seems to agree.

 

I will stay with the current method of rating to prevent adding confusion to the system and to stay within an agreed upon standard when rating grippers. If there's no standard then anything goes when conducting tests, ratings, experiments, etc...

 

Keep in mind it doesn't matter what a gripper "feels" like when it comes to being objective, scientific and accurate. What matters is being able to quantify the actual numbers.  This is an objective method of rating versus what a gripper "feels" like which is a subjective method of testing. I can only speak for myself but I'll take an objective test over a subjective test any day of the week. I don't care what a gripper feels like when it comes to ratings! I care what the numbers reveal!

 

Note: The flexible rubber piece I suggest placing over the end of the top handle "does not" cover the entire circumference of the handle! Only the top portion and the rounded sides. This way the handle ends can still touch for an accurate rating.

[Cannon]

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. We have given this careful thought and believe it's the best way.

Zeniths are a different beast and averages have yet to be established. Our ratings with this method will be as repeatable and reliable as the RGC method on standard grippers. And we believe our numbers will provide useful comparison and less confusion when sold alongside standard TSGs.

For example, if you're not good for a 135-ish gripper close, you probably don't have the horsepower for a Zenith #3.

[Cannon]

Or just don't rate these type of grippers at all because they have some kind of different purpose than regular grippers, not sure what it is yet...

The rating service will continue to be offered, but it's only an option of course.

Not sure where your post went, Tom, but it's still there in my quote at least.

[Mighty Joe]

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. We have given this careful thought and believe its the best way.

 

No problem Matt!

 

I'm assuming by "we" you're only speaking for Cannon Powerworks and not the majority?

Are you saying this is the way "you" are going to rate the Zenith grippers you sell if the person

desires to have it rated?

 

That's your right and decision being it's your company and I know you've probably gave your reasoning as much thought

as I have my own reasoning.

 

Wish you well Matt!!!

[Cannon]

Yes, "we" is Cannon PowerWorks.

[Tom Scibelli]

Or just don't rate these type of grippers at all because they have some kind of different purpose than regular grippers, not sure what it is yet...

The rating service will continue to be offered, but it's only an option of course.

Not sure where your post went, Tom, but it's still there in my quote at least.

The zenith grippers just confuse me that's all

[Cannon]

I agree, Tom. We feel this is the best choice for the store to help people understand which Zenith is the best choice when listed alongside regular rated grippers.

[Chez]

Hey Matt. I just noticed the Zenith #3 is listed on your website as 150. I thought it was suppose to be 135 per your post above. 

[Draught-Player]

I set the ice cream belt on the end of the middle band, I get the resistance for Zenith 3 = 53.9kg/118.8lbs, so I think at the end of the handle RGC resistance can be lower than CoC 2 = RGC 110lbs!

Edited by Draught-Player, 19 January 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Cannon]

Hey Matt. I just noticed the Zenith #3 is listed on your website as 150. I thought it was suppose to be 135 per your post above. 

From above:
We will update the published ratings for Zenith as we gather more data. For now, they've been set to match their CoC counterpart to align with IronMind's intent that a Zenith #3 would compliment training for the CoC #3.

I set the ice cream belt on the end of the middle band, I get the resistance for Zenith 3 = 53.9kg/118.8lbs, so I think at the end of the handle RGC resistance can be lower than CoC 2 = RGC 110lbs!

We have the strap farther back.

[Cannon]

Here is a photo example of how we're rating the Zenith grippers.  The strap is aligned with the back of the trade dress.    

 

 

Also, the website is now updated with the actual averages for each gripper.  Again, we want to highlight that measuring from this spot on the handle provides not only an accurate, repeatable rating, but also a rating that is meaningful to the well-established strength ranges of regular grippers.  Here are the averages:

 

Zenith Agility = 20 (Yes it's actually that easy.  My 6-year-old can close this gripper.)

Zenith Trainer = 50

Zenith #1 = 70

Zenith #2 = 85

Zenith #3 = 135

 

[gm1swm]

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. We have given this careful thought and believe it's the best way.
Zeniths are a different beast and averages have yet to be established. Our ratings with this method will be as repeatable and reliable as the RGC method on standard grippers. And we believe our numbers will provide useful comparison and less confusion when sold alongside standard TSGs.
For example, if you're not good for a 135-ish gripper close, you probably don't have the horsepower for a Zenith #3.

Are you saying this gripper is comparable to a typical TSG rated at 135?

Comparing the Z3 to a GHP 6 rated at 137 and a 2.5 rated at 128, I cannot TNS the latter two grippers as much I do the Z3. I have done at one point like 26 continuous TNS closes on the Z3 with 15-30 second rest periods between later closes.

I'd be lucky to get five closes with the latter two.

Honestly, this gripper feels like a smooth handled CoC#2 when TNS'ed.

My Z2 feels like a 1.5...

Just my two cents...

[Cannon]

Yes, I'm saying it's a better representation of the strength needed. 

 

To your point that the Z2 feels like a 1.5, that's exactly what we're trying to capture with the ratings. 

 

An average CoC 1.5 is 90# and with our rating method the Z2 is listed as 85#.  A very useful comparison supported by your estimation of how these compare in the hand.  This is a perfect example.    

 

http://cannonpowerwo...ctions/ironmind

[Cannon]

Another point to consider, RGC ratings were never meant to capture the difficulty in TNS closing a gripper.  A rating only reflects pounds at the close.  It's always been known that narrow grippers are easier to close (the same principal is at work in a choker close).  Zenith grippers have a fairly narrow stance. 

 

It's not surprising that you could TNS a Z3 at ~130# and not a GHP6 (which have a notoriously hard sweep and wide spread). 

[gm1swm]

What I'm trying to say is...the Z3 feels nowhere near 135.

Measuring the Z3 in the middle of the handle seems like you're trying to match up numbers.

If you measure the Z3 like you do other grippers, then let there be a big gap in numbers.

I don't think it's about Z3 is closely resembling a CoC#3. It's more like, "The Z3 is our most difficult Zenith gripper...so align it with the CoC#3 and above"

[Cannon]

This is where we made a judgment call for the store since all these grippers are sold side by side. Unique gripper; unique rating required so that the number is relevant. 

 

Keep in mind the current RGC method is arbitrary.  The original strap placement was a judgment call by Dave and Greg.  It offered the advantage of lower weights lifted over and over, and also aided strap placement because all grippers have ends of handles.  The whole point was to get meaningful data and repeatable results. 

 

The Zeniths will vary like any other gripper and possibly you have an easy one.  I've RGC rated and assessed many grippers and the Z3s that I've evaluated are similar enough to 135 in strength that it's a useful comparison.  Actual ratings will vary like all other grippers.  Are some going to be 125?  Yes.  Are some going to be 135?  Yes.  They vary, but this range of strength (125-135) is absolutely in the ballpark of the required closing power.  Read the reviews of others who have purchased the Z3 so far.  As time goes on and more data collected, we might need to bump the Z3 average down to 125 or 130, but there is no question this is now it feels in the hand.       

 

Again, to your own point, the Z2 feels like a #1.5.  By taking the rating in the manner we have chosen, the numbers reflect this exactly.  The other levels fall right in line.  We absolutely feel this is the best way to rate Zenith Grippers.  As Dave and Greg intended with the original method, the numbers are repeatable and meaningful.    

[kasparov]

Excuse my ignorance..but what is a hard sweep?

[Cannon]

The "sweep" on a gripper is generally the range of motion from completely open down to maybe parallel.  It's objective.  But the point is that it's the range of motion that is not the close. 

[Alawadhi]

I have had the Zenith #3 for some time now. First time I could rep it 12 reps. I can close a 152 CoC#3 for one strong close but thats it. And my #2.5 for 3 reps mot more. Is my Zenith easy in your opinion?