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Top Roll And Hook Help Needed


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#1 OFFLINE   gm1swm

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

What are the key points to train in the top roll?

Also, what is a good gauge of curl strength to be good at the hook? Currently, I can table curl 80's for reps, but to me, that just trains the ability to catch a hit.

#2 OFFLINE   Mighty Joe

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:11 PM

What are the key points to train in the top roll?

Also, what is a good gauge of curl strength to be good at the hook? Currently, I can table curl 80's for reps, but to me, that just trains the ability to catch a hit.

 

Top Roll = Train rotator strength on table (preferably explosively) as often as you can. By often, I mean training it on a AW'ing table

instead of traditional pronation movements with weights hanging from a rope, towel, etc... This is not to say avoid traditional exercises but to incorporate them as needed or as assistance exercises to train a weakness.

 

One thing I've experimented with lately is ballistic training on the AW'ing table using resistance bands that

allow one to pull explosively (50-70% of max). In this method the larger, faster motor units are recruited which

means more force applied when going max effort. Essentially what you're doing is training the neuromuscular system

to recruit high threshold motor units more efficiently. As a result of this type of training your overall max pulling force is

increased at slower, max effort pulls. Make sense?

 

The biggest mistake I see with new pullers in their top roll is anchoring their hand to their opponents by applying tons

of finger pressure from the get go. Wrong answer! When you anchor your hand to your opponents you are about to

be taken for a swift ride to the pin pad! 

 

I'll elaborate more on the hook when I have time and see that you understand the top roll suggestions I've given you.

 

Hope this helps you!!!


Edited by Mighty Joe, 05 January 2013 - 06:13 PM.


#3 OFFLINE   thewalrus

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

The biggest mistake I see with new pullers in their top roll is anchoring their hand to their opponents by applying tons of finger pressure from the get go. Wrong answer! When you anchor your hand to your opponents you are about to be taken for a swift ride to the pin pad!

 

This is completely true.  I used to see this happen all the time with novices, and no matter how many times I demonstrated how this was a DISADVANTAGE to them, a lot of them would continue to do it anyway  :huh:

 



#4 OFFLINE   gm1swm

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

What are the key points to train in the top roll?
Also, what is a good gauge of curl strength to be good at the hook? Currently, I can table curl 80's for reps, but to me, that just trains the ability to catch a hit.

 
Top Roll = Train rotator strength on table (preferably explosively) as often as you can. By often, I mean training it on a AW'ing table
instead of traditional pronation movements with weights hanging from a rope, towel, etc... This is not to say avoid traditional exercises but to incorporate them as needed or as assistance exercises to train a weakness.
 
One thing I've experimented with lately is ballistic training on the AW'ing table using resistance bands that
allow one to pull explosively (50-70% of max). In this method the larger, faster motor units are recruited which
means more force applied when going max effort. Essentially what you're doing is training the neuromuscular system
to recruit high threshold motor units more efficiently. As a result of this type of training your overall max pulling force is
increased at slower, max effort pulls. Make sense?
 
The biggest mistake I see with new pullers in their top roll is anchoring their hand to their opponents by applying tons
of finger pressure from the get go. Wrong answer! When you anchor your hand to your opponents you are about to
be taken for a swift ride to the pin pad! 
 
I'll elaborate more on the hook when I have time and see that you understand the top roll suggestions I've given you.
 
Hope this helps you!!!

Joe...with the top roll, am I chopping into my opponent's wrist and then pronating or am I strictly pronating over?

#5 OFFLINE   Mighty Joe

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 05:55 PM

What are the key points to train in the top roll?
Also, what is a good gauge of curl strength to be good at the hook? Currently, I can table curl 80's for reps, but to me, that just trains the ability to catch a hit.

 
Top Roll = Train rotator strength on table (preferably explosively) as often as you can. By often, I mean training it on a AW'ing table
instead of traditional pronation movements with weights hanging from a rope, towel, etc... This is not to say avoid traditional exercises but to incorporate them as needed or as assistance exercises to train a weakness.
 
One thing I've experimented with lately is ballistic training on the AW'ing table using resistance bands that
allow one to pull explosively (50-70% of max). In this method the larger, faster motor units are recruited which
means more force applied when going max effort. Essentially what you're doing is training the neuromuscular system
to recruit high threshold motor units more efficiently. As a result of this type of training your overall max pulling force is
increased at slower, max effort pulls. Make sense?
 
The biggest mistake I see with new pullers in their top roll is anchoring their hand to their opponents by applying tons
of finger pressure from the get go. Wrong answer! When you anchor your hand to your opponents you are about to
be taken for a swift ride to the pin pad! 
 
I'll elaborate more on the hook when I have time and see that you understand the top roll suggestions I've given you.
 
Hope this helps you!!!

Joe...with the top roll, am I chopping into my opponent's wrist and then pronating or am I strictly pronating over?

I was assuming you knew basic top roll technique.

 

If you don't know proper technique you shouldn't be training to get your top roll stronger until

you at least have the basic top roll down.

 

Do you have any experienced pullers to help you with technique?



#6 OFFLINE   gm1swm

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:00 PM





What are the key points to train in the top roll?
Also, what is a good gauge of curl strength to be good at the hook? Currently, I can table curl 80's for reps, but to me, that just trains the ability to catch a hit.

 
Top Roll = Train rotator strength on table (preferably explosively) as often as you can. By often, I mean training it on a AW'ing table
instead of traditional pronation movements with weights hanging from a rope, towel, etc... This is not to say avoid traditional exercises but to incorporate them as needed or as assistance exercises to train a weakness.
 
One thing I've experimented with lately is ballistic training on the AW'ing table using resistance bands that
allow one to pull explosively (50-70% of max). In this method the larger, faster motor units are recruited which
means more force applied when going max effort. Essentially what you're doing is training the neuromuscular system
to recruit high threshold motor units more efficiently. As a result of this type of training your overall max pulling force is
increased at slower, max effort pulls. Make sense?
 
The biggest mistake I see with new pullers in their top roll is anchoring their hand to their opponents by applying tons
of finger pressure from the get go. Wrong answer! When you anchor your hand to your opponents you are about to
be taken for a swift ride to the pin pad! 
 
I'll elaborate more on the hook when I have time and see that you understand the top roll suggestions I've given you.
 
Hope this helps you!!!

Joe...with the top roll, am I chopping into my opponent's wrist and then pronating or am I strictly pronating over?
I was assuming you knew basic top roll technique.
 
If you don't know proper technique you shouldn't be training to get your top roll stronger until
you at least have the basic top roll down.
 
Do you have any experienced pullers to help you with technique?
My question is geared towards asking how you top roll.

I've seen guys that do traditional top roll, others that really chop into the wrist and then roll over, and then a few that do a posting top roll.

#7 OFFLINE   Mighty Joe

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:00 AM

I don't like trying to explain technique to a beginner in writing. It's too easy to get them confused.

 

Best bet is to find someone experienced to show you proper technique.

 

To answer your question best I can though you don't chop into someones wrist in a top roll movement.

 

When top rolling think OUTSIDE movement. Your hand should be going away and to the outside on go. When hooking think INSIDE movement. Your hand and wrist should be going INTO your opponents hand while the whole time you're pulling at a 30 to 45 degree angle towards your opposite arm pit. What you're doing is trying to create distance (open up)

between your opponents hand and his shoulder. Try and get his arm pulled away from him where he's not as strong.

 

Another mistake made in AW'ing (specially beginners) is not studying technique enough. Really analyze what your doing and why you're doing it. If you're not creating a disadvantage for your opponent it's usually wrong.

 

Hope this helps!



#8 OFFLINE   gm1swm

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:14 PM

I don't like trying to explain technique to a beginner in writing. It's too easy to get them confused.
 
Best bet is to find someone experienced to show you proper technique.
 
To answer your question best I can though you don't chop into someones wrist in a top roll movement.
 
When top rolling think OUTSIDE movement. Your hand should be going away and to the outside on go. When hooking think INSIDE movement. Your hand and wrist should be going INTO your opponents hand while the whole time you're pulling at a 30 to 45 degree angle towards your opposite arm pit. What you're doing is trying to create distance (open up)
between your opponents hand and his shoulder. Try and get his arm pulled away from him where he's not as strong.
 
Another mistake made in AW'ing (specially beginners) is not studying technique enough. Really analyze what your doing and why you're doing it. If you're not creating a disadvantage for your opponent it's usually wrong.
 
Hope this helps!

This helps a lot! I try to get over to Allen's place when I can, but my schedule is kind of crazy right now, so I have to resort to videos and people like you explaining some things, Joe.

#9 OFFLINE   Mighty Joe

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:01 PM

I don't like trying to explain technique to a beginner in writing. It's too easy to get them confused.
 
Best bet is to find someone experienced to show you proper technique.
 
To answer your question best I can though you don't chop into someones wrist in a top roll movement.
 
When top rolling think OUTSIDE movement. Your hand should be going away and to the outside on go. When hooking think INSIDE movement. Your hand and wrist should be going INTO your opponents hand while the whole time you're pulling at a 30 to 45 degree angle towards your opposite arm pit. What you're doing is trying to create distance (open up)
between your opponents hand and his shoulder. Try and get his arm pulled away from him where he's not as strong.
 
Another mistake made in AW'ing (specially beginners) is not studying technique enough. Really analyze what your doing and why you're doing it. If you're not creating a disadvantage for your opponent it's usually wrong.
 
Hope this helps!

This helps a lot! I try to get over to Allen's place when I can, but my schedule is kind of crazy right now, so I have to resort to videos and people like you explaining some things, Joe.

 

Glad this helped you!

 

I love helping others if I can.

 

Stay with it and be patient!



#10 OFFLINE   thewalrus

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

The answer is that there is not a "correct" way to toproll.  The essence of a toproll is to find a weakness in your opponents wrist or hand, and to exploit this weakness in order to reach a leverage advantage.  There are many ways to do this, and may require different approaches for different opponents.


Edited by thewalrus, 07 January 2013 - 09:03 PM.


#11 OFFLINE   EricMilfeld

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:33 AM

I would like a little elaboration on the anchoring issue.  I can see a disadvantage in really clamping down on your opponents hand with your last three fingers, but what about your thumb and forefinger?  Wouldn't it be a good thing to bite down hard on his thumb with your own thumb and forefinger, allowing your other fingers to slide across the back of his hand as you pronate?  



#12 OFFLINE   judoboy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:30 PM

Most times when top rolling you want your opponent to hang on to you, so you bring their hand or fingers with you (and away from their power). You will be applying your power through the top of your hand (between index knuckle and wrist) into their hand or fingers.

Hook (inside) pullers want to get close, usually touching at the lower hand / wrist area. Therefore; setting up slightly pronated and using minimal finger pressure, restricts them setting a deep hook off the go.

Edited by judoboy, 09 January 2013 - 01:31 PM.


#13 OFFLINE   EricMilfeld

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:26 PM

Most times when top rolling you want your opponent to hang on to you, so you bring their hand or fingers with you (and away from their power). You will be applying your power through the top of your hand (between index knuckle and wrist) into their hand or fingers.

Hook (inside) pullers want to get close, usually touching at the lower hand / wrist area. Therefore; setting up slightly pronated and using minimal finger pressure, restricts them setting a deep hook off the go.

Thank you, Anthony.  That's very helpful.



#14 OFFLINE   gm1swm

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:21 PM

Most times when top rolling you want your opponent to hang on to you, so you bring their hand or fingers with you (and away from their power). You will be applying your power through the top of your hand (between index knuckle and wrist) into their hand or fingers.
Hook (inside) pullers want to get close, usually touching at the lower hand / wrist area. Therefore; setting up slightly pronated and using minimal finger pressure, restricts them setting a deep hook off the go.

Makes sense...but with hook pullers, aren't they applying their pressure mainly through their pinky pad? If you set up with a slightly pronated wrist, isn't that making you susceptible to a top roll if they're able to change it up?

#15 OFFLINE   judoboy

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

Most times when top rolling you want your opponent to hang on to you, so you bring their hand or fingers with you (and away from their power). You will be applying your power through the top of your hand (between index knuckle and wrist) into their hand or fingers.
Hook (inside) pullers want to get close, usually touching at the lower hand / wrist area. Therefore; setting up slightly pronated and using minimal finger pressure, restricts them setting a deep hook off the go.

Makes sense...but with hook pullers, aren't they applying their pressure mainly through their pinky pad? If you set up with a slightly pronated wrist, isn't that making you susceptible to a top roll if they're able to change it up?

 

If your opponent is likely to hook (attacking you with cupping pressure), setting up pronated is a good thing, as they will want to supinate you (as I mention in the other thread), this also increases your negative movment thro the range of toprolling - again a tip from Devon Larratt

 

http://www.youtube.c...?v=JNZhczYtPbU/


Edited by judoboy, 10 January 2013 - 11:47 AM.