Billy Jack Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Matt, Based on what the NAGS site says, that assumption appears to be correct. However, I never see any results broken down that way on here. I have also not seen any prizes/winnings being broken down by Elite/Open/Novice status either. I could be totally wrong since I of course was not at all of the comps, so please correct me if I am wrong. I think the site breaks things down perfectly, but I am not sure that it has been easy to maintain those standardized classes and they may have fallen to the wayside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 Much of what is being discussed has been tried. We tried Elite - we tried Novice in addition to Open - did not work. Gripmas tried Wilks and Sinclair Metzler Malone scoring (includes age) after the fact in 2012 - was pretty interesting but solved nothing. To use formulas we need Grip Sport data (and a math guy) which cannot be obtained without solving the problem we are discussing - data obtained from other sports isn't going to work for us. Adding layers of complexity with Novice alongside Open, multiple platforms etc and Weight Classes isn't possible for most Promoters - contests are already over the top hard to manage for most of us and I can't afford to lose even more money giving prizes to people who are the only one in a class. We older promoters discuss this stuff quite often - a TON of arguing and discussion went into developing the weight class concept - I don't see that changing. Division was necessary and weight classes are the fairest way we found over much trail and error. What everyone is saying is good but the under current I keep getting is - I won't compete unless I think I can do well right off the bat and come home with some kind of prize package. What ever happened to paying your dues and progressing your way up through the ranks as you grow in strength and confidence? We now have it where you do NOT have to compete against people outside your size range - you do not have to go against Chad etc if you are smaller. I hate to think that egos have become so fragile as it appears they have. Grip Sport contests are FUN - are very low key unless you choose to make it serious - you want coaching from possibly the World Record holder, that will probably happen for the newest greenest competitor if desired - everyone cheers for everyone else, even the guy about to beat them. I don't know of many sports where one can compete and be less embarrassed and receive more encouragement as a beginner than Grip. Sorry for the rant - I have a headache today. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Much of what is being discussed has been tried. We tried Elite - we tried Novice in addition to Open - did not work. Gripmas tried Wilks and Sinclair Metzler Malone scoring (includes age) after the fact in 2012 - was pretty interesting but solved nothing. To use formulas we need Grip Sport data (and a math guy) which cannot be obtained without solving the problem we are discussing - data obtained from other sports isn't going to work for us. Adding layers of complexity with Novice alongside Open, multiple platforms etc and Weight Classes isn't possible for most Promoters - contests are already over the top hard to manage for most of us and I can't afford to lose even more money giving prizes to people who are the only one in a class. We older promoters discuss this stuff quite often - a TON of arguing and discussion went into developing the weight class concept - I don't see that changing. Division was necessary and weight classes are the fairest way we found over much trail and error. What everyone is saying is good but the under current I keep getting is - I won't compete unless I think I can do well right off the bat and come home with some kind of prize package. What ever happened to paying your dues and progressing your way up through the ranks as you grow in strength and confidence? We now have it where you do NOT have to compete against people outside your size range - you do not have to go against Chad etc if you are smaller. I hate to think that egos have become so fragile as it appears they have. Grip Sport contests are FUN - are very low key unless you choose to make it serious - you want coaching from possibly the World Record holder, that will probably happen for the newest greenest competitor if desired - everyone cheers for everyone else, even the guy about to beat them. I don't know of many sports where one can compete and be less embarrassed and receive more encouragement as a beginner than Grip. Sorry for the rant - I have a headache today. Reality check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) Much of what is being discussed has been tried. We tried Elite - we tried Novice in addition to Open - did not work. Gripmas tried Wilks and Sinclair Metzler Malone scoring (includes age) after the fact in 2012 - was pretty interesting but solved nothing. To use formulas we need Grip Sport data (and a math guy) which cannot be obtained without solving the problem we are discussing - data obtained from other sports isn't going to work for us. Adding layers of complexity with Novice alongside Open, multiple platforms etc and Weight Classes isn't possible for most Promoters - contests are already over the top hard to manage for most of us and I can't afford to lose even more money giving prizes to people who are the only one in a class. We older promoters discuss this stuff quite often - a TON of arguing and discussion went into developing the weight class concept - I don't see that changing. Division was necessary and weight classes are the fairest way we found over much trail and error. What everyone is saying is good but the under current I keep getting is - I won't compete unless I think I can do well right off the bat and come home with some kind of prize package. What ever happened to paying your dues and progressing your way up through the ranks as you grow in strength and confidence? We now have it where you do NOT have to compete against people outside your size range - you do not have to go against Chad etc if you are smaller. I hate to think that egos have become so fragile as it appears they have. Grip Sport contests are FUN - are very low key unless you choose to make it serious - you want coaching from possibly the World Record holder, that will probably happen for the newest greenest competitor if desired - everyone cheers for everyone else, even the guy about to beat them. I don't know of many sports where one can compete and be less embarrassed and receive more encouragement as a beginner than Grip. Sorry for the rant - I have a headache today. Reality check. Mine I guess. Edited March 20, 2014 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvance Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 At the end of the day the purest motivation is to meet the top guys and learn from them. All in hopes that you will one day be on their radar. The key is getting people to believe that they can achieve a great level of hand strength, rather than just being in awe. That's what we should focus on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massey Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Yeah weight classes are the best way to go although IMO weight doesn't nessasarly mean you have a stronger grip generally a taller guy will weight more and have bigger hands then a lighter guy so if people take grip seriously they will get their whole body in shape and be in the weight class they belong like amateur wrestling and the people they are competing against will be relatively fair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royz Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Another one from the newbie from Holland. EXPOSURE. That's what grip needs. Backyard gripcomps are great and invaluable but stuff like Mighty Mitts brings the crowd. It really doesn't matter that the feats are being done by giants. People need hero's in any sport. If I watch the olympics I don't see 'average' people. I see human cheetahs running the 100m in sub 10 seconds, I see human dolphins racing through water at inhuman speeds, I see tiny men and women lifting more weight above their heads than I will ever be able to and I see giant men and women lifting even more weight above their heads. I see 3 meter tall guys shootin' hoops and crazy elastic people doing things in gymnastics I cannot even begin to fathom of ever being able to do. Does all this prevent people from chosing those sports ? Nope. Because most people will never be elite in ANY sport. Most people choose a sport because they feel it's fun or healthy to do not because they think they can break world records. So just show people that grip is fun. - At the backyard competitions, - Bring your gadgets to a gym and start training there - Mention it on social media It will take time. But seeing as stuff like fatgripz and grippers are now even available in Holland gives me hope... Still have to make most of the stuff myself... but that is just part of the fun! :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANCRUSHER Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I thing the only way to solve the problem of weight classes is to throw bodyweight stuff in the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank Andrade Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Much of what is being discussed has been tried. We tried Elite - we tried Novice in addition to Open - did not work. Gripmas tried Wilks and Sinclair Metzler Malone scoring (includes age) after the fact in 2012 - was pretty interesting but solved nothing. To use formulas we need Grip Sport data (and a math guy) which cannot be obtained without solving the problem we are discussing - data obtained from other sports isn't going to work for us. Adding layers of complexity with Novice alongside Open, multiple platforms etc and Weight Classes isn't possible for most Promoters - contests are already over the top hard to manage for most of us and I can't afford to lose even more money giving prizes to people who are the only one in a class. We older promoters discuss this stuff quite often - a TON of arguing and discussion went into developing the weight class concept - I don't see that changing. Division was necessary and weight classes are the fairest way we found over much trail and error. What everyone is saying is good but the under current I keep getting is - I won't compete unless I think I can do well right off the bat and come home with some kind of prize package. What ever happened to paying your dues and progressing your way up through the ranks as you grow in strength and confidence? We now have it where you do NOT have to compete against people outside your size range - you do not have to go against Chad etc if you are smaller. I hate to think that egos have become so fragile as it appears they have. Grip Sport contests are FUN - are very low key unless you choose to make it serious - you want coaching from possibly the World Record holder, that will probably happen for the newest greenest competitor if desired - everyone cheers for everyone else, even the guy about to beat them. I don't know of many sports where one can compete and be less embarrassed and receive more encouragement as a beginner than Grip. Sorry for the rant - I have a headache today. I agree with Climber this sport has the most fun, positive vibe of anything ive ever done. I have been at the bottom of all my comps. I keep coming back to better myself and have fun. If someone dosent have that mindset theres not much you can do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I agree with Cancrusher and the best way to do this will be by beginning to introduce one body weight type event per comp. For example, a thick bar hang for time or bodyweight axle for reps, etc. to help the lighter guys in placing higher and the heavier guys to improve their training diversity... would be mutually beneficial and interesting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Styles Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I bet a grip contest tacked onto the crossfit games would create interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I thing the only way to solve the problem of weight classes is to throw bodyweight stuff in the mix. Do you mean like contest rafter pull ups or like 2HP and % of body weight lifted wins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Wasn't that the intention of the Elite status? They would only compete against each other and then "regular folks" might stand a chance? Yes, but then everyone wanted weight classes instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Yes, but then everyone wanted weight classes instead. Why not both? And no, not enough competitors is not a reason... Because we're talking about things that would increase the number of participants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Wasn't that the intention of the Elite status? They would only compete against each other and then "regular folks" might stand a chance? Yes, but then everyone wanted weight classes instead. There were only a handful of people who ever totaled 800# and none of them were exactly small. So we ended up with 3 or 4 Elites at a given contest and everyone else still in a mix. It didn't solve much. In a larger pool of competitors it might work out but in reality it didn't accomplish the desired result. It had no effect at all on lighter weight classes - as none came anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Much of what is being discussed has been tried. We tried Elite - we tried Novice in addition to Open - did not work. Gripmas tried Wilks and Sinclair Metzler Malone scoring (includes age) after the fact in 2012 - was pretty interesting but solved nothing. To use formulas we need Grip Sport data (and a math guy) which cannot be obtained without solving the problem we are discussing - data obtained from other sports isn't going to work for us. Adding layers of complexity with Novice alongside Open, multiple platforms etc and Weight Classes isn't possible for most Promoters - contests are already over the top hard to manage for most of us and I can't afford to lose even more money giving prizes to people who are the only one in a class. We older promoters discuss this stuff quite often - a TON of arguing and discussion went into developing the weight class concept - I don't see that changing. Division was necessary and weight classes are the fairest way we found over much trail and error. What everyone is saying is good but the under current I keep getting is - I won't compete unless I think I can do well right off the bat and come home with some kind of prize package. What ever happened to paying your dues and progressing your way up through the ranks as you grow in strength and confidence? We now have it where you do NOT have to compete against people outside your size range - you do not have to go against Chad etc if you are smaller. I hate to think that egos have become so fragile as it appears they have. Grip Sport contests are FUN - are very low key unless you choose to make it serious - you want coaching from possibly the World Record holder, that will probably happen for the newest greenest competitor if desired - everyone cheers for everyone else, even the guy about to beat them. I don't know of many sports where one can compete and be less embarrassed and receive more encouragement as a beginner than Grip. Sorry for the rant - I have a headache today. This is TRUTH, brother. I think administratively, we have taken care of much of what is needed to do, in order to make things as fair as possible. At this point, I think we really need to just get out there. Infiltrate things more. Share more videos. Write more stuff. Post on Facebook about how much you love Grip. Things along these lines. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Yes, but then everyone wanted weight classes instead. Why not both? And no, not enough competitors is not a reason... Because we're talking about things that would increase the number of participants. As a promoter I want to put on a contest where people compete against people who are of about the same size. This is what it is - experience levels and strength levels can be changed and is the purpose of competing at all - size on the day cannot. What you are talking about is dividing the competitors by how strong they are - and that's the purpose of the competition itself. Having an Elite class made some sense when all we had was one Overall division and the same guys were unbeatable by those weighing up to 100# less. There are now 8 weight classes I believe - if we were to break that down even more to Novice - Open - Elite we could have as many as 24 divisions possible. That's about the number of people at the largest of competitions ever held - and as many as I for example could even fit into my gym. How far down do we need to divide things before the completion aspect is completely gone? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 What you are talking about is dividing the competitors by how strong they are - and that's the purpose of the competition itself. That's an excellent quote right there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IROC-Z Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Just out of curiosity, don't most athletes who compete in strength related contests want to compete against the best out there? When I show up for a contest, I want to see exactly how I match up against the best guys. The idea of watering things down to the point where almost everybody goes home with a top three finish sounds very unappealing to me. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANCRUSHER Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 From what i understand the problem is that there are not enough guys to fill each weight class and there isnt enough money to give good prizes for every weight class. Then the answer is simple lets make one open class in which half of the points are from bodyweight events with many competitors and a solid prize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Just out of curiosity, don't most athletes who compete in strength related contests want to compete against the best out there? When I show up for a contest, I want to see exactly how I match up against the best guys. The idea of watering things down to the point where almost everybody goes home with a top three finish sounds very unappealing to me. Yeah this is a unique problem for grip because we're small. If there were 15 guys showing up in each class then a top 3 finish means something. That's the question Chris is asking: How do we get those guys to show up? I agree with your point that this isn't 2nd grade soccer. Not everybody has to win or get an award. I want to compete with the best as well, but it's not fun to get my arse handed to me by any and every 200 pounder who happened to be in the gym the day of the contest and had time to kill...never mind the 200 pounders who train grip. From what i understand the problem is that there are not enough guys to fill each weight class and there isnt enough money to give good prizes for every weight class. Then the answer is simple lets make one open class in which half of the points are from bodyweight events with many competitors and a solid prize. I still like your idea, but what kind of body weight events do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHenze646 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Another thing that confused me at first (which was semi frustrating) was all the equipment id be needing to train my new passion.. There was lots of stuff i knew i needed to buy and build etc. and this stuff gets expensive. Which can be (and was for me) a reason to drag my feet getting more involved in grip. That and the fact that info on whos who in grip was kind of hard to find, even online, i had no go-to reference as to how exactly to train grip without blowing Eric or Pauls phone up with questions all the time, or buying more stuff like training dvds to add to the already expensive equipment i had to purchase. This is a great point. The cost and availability of equipment are deterrents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANCRUSHER Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Just out of curiosity, don't most athletes who compete in strength related contests want to compete against the best out there? When I show up for a contest, I want to see exactly how I match up against the best guys. The idea of watering things down to the point where almost everybody goes home with a top three finish sounds very unappealing to me. Yeah this is a unique problem for grip because we're small. If there were 15 guys showing up in each class then a top 3 finish means something. That's the question Chris is asking: How do we get those guys to show up? I agree with your point that this isn't 2nd grade soccer. Not everybody has to win or get an award. I want to compete with the best as well, but it's not fun to get my arse handed to me by any and every 200 pounder who happened to be in the gym the day of the contest and had time to kill...never mind the 200 pounders who train grip. From what i understand the problem is that there are not enough guys to fill each weight class and there isnt enough money to give good prizes for every weight class. Then the answer is simple lets make one open class in which half of the points are from bodyweight events with many competitors and a solid prize. I still like your idea, but what kind of body weight events do you mean? Something like pullups on a 2 inches bar may work.I think is a pretty cheap set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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