Weight Classes And Growth Discussion

[climber511]

How should we design Grip Contests so that weight class athletes will actually feel they have a chance at gaining any recognition at all? How do we attract smaller and lighter people to the sport? Despite the existence of weight classes we are not getting lighter people to contests – let’s have a discussion of ideas to increase attendance please.

The sport’s reputation is ALL about big men with generally big hands lifting huge weight – as far as getting people into the sport I believe as exciting as this is that this acts as a negative – people watch the main stage of the Arnold – then go visit the Sorinex booth – and they can’t move even one item, especially those people of normal size. I can pretty much say we will never see them at one of our contests after this. If they get as far as the Top 50 lists somehow – and dig around enough to see those people’s size – what do they think if they weight 150#? Where do we go from here to try and reach people – and not just the top of the food chain of strength athletes?

The Strongmen are coming and trying Grip – but how many “normal” sized people (or just “normal” people at all – who may have very competitive grips for their size, are entering the sport? And how do we reach them? Our “certs” and/or feats of Grip Strength are fairly meaningless for a 135# rock climber for example – do we need certs and feats by weight class – would this matter?

As a promoter I kick around all kinds of stuff – but how do I get enough weight class people to show up to even have a class at my competition for them? A class of one is not a comp in my mind – I’m not into participation awards. And yet that one that did show up has to believe it is worthwhile and that they are to be as appreciated as everyone else – and their lifts do matter - if all lightweights are made to feel that same way – then no one comes and we defeat ourselves before we start.

The GripBoard is not the answer – we have thousands of weight class members, most of which never have and never will attend a contest of any kind. And almost none of the lighter weight class members are on the cert lists – Top 50 lists – etc. We have to do better if the sport is to survive and grow. The question is How? Somehow we have to impress on people that Grip is just plain “fun” and you don’t have to be able to WIN your first comp.

Thoughts?

[jvance]

I said this before on Richard's thread, I think there is too much of a mystique surrounding us as grip... competitors, enthusiasts... gripsters (hate the term). I have been working hard to break down the notion that i have some sort of mutant strength and ability that they could never achieve. That is basically it in a nutshell; people go to see some crazy strong guy bending crazy bolts and ripping plastic cards.. and think "there is no way i could do that"... and that's it - not another thought. What I have been doing, at least with people i know and work with, is give them the basics and encourage them to add hand strength in their routine to help with other gym goals. I've made modest progress on this, i think i've gotten four or five guys over the last couple years to buy a few things like grippers or fat grips, etc... The bottom line is, we've got to stop showboating - and this goes for me too, because all it does it discourage weaker people from starting out. Guys who work with manual labor people, the onus is even more on you because there are some real monsters out there who've been turning wrenches and real life farmers walking for years - we gotta reach these people too.

Edited March 18, 2014 by jvance

[Eric Roussin]

Maybe if percentage of weight based scoring was used in contests? For example, a 150-lb lifter who lifts 300 lbs on the axle would earn the same number of points as a 200-lb lifter who lifts 400 lbs. However this could have the reverse effect of reducing the incentive for bigger athletes... But maybe some sort of mathematical adjustment that takes into account body weight could be something worth exploring.

[FJM]

In smaller powerlifting events they use wilks points to judge winner. bigger contests that have enough lifters use weight classes.

I think that in some of Finnish iron hand contests they have under 90kg class but not sure how popular or useful it is. Maybe Juha could tell since he has competed much longer.

[Electron]

Very valid and much needed question, Chris.

As many of you know, I am very light, especially at my current size.

I attended the first contest where the 59k records were set -- SHGC6 at Eric's -- by myself and another competitor.

Now, I had always been interested in grip but had never seen myself attending a contest. The reasons are numerous but here are the few that stand out:

When I began there were no real grip strength standards for anybody who weighed less than 200lbs. This is a cyclical thing, since the big men who started the sport brought more big men into it.

Because there were no solid standards, I compared myself to what those 200lbs+ men were lifting. Big difference.

Though this will be remedied through time and more data, I believe that lighter competitors should be deciding which standards should be set for lower classes as qualifiers.

There is also the mentality that you must go for the heaviest lifts possible, even at the expense of health.

Example: Between a 400lbs man with a 380 axle, and a 140lbs man with a 280 axle, the heavier lift is generally looked at as being more respectable.

I think this comes from the "Bigger=better" mentality, but where does that put the light guys?

This will certainly drive away strong men who are light, because in many if not all grip competitions, the absolute winner is the only winner.

The average weight of men in the USA is quite high, but strong sub-150s do exist in sports like AW, PL, climbing, MMA, gymnastics.

Bringing them to grip will be about just looking in the right places and promoting properly.

I'm thinking that Reddit is especially a good medium since the people there are usually willing to learn. Free instructional videos for the main grip lifts will help spur layman interest.

As a final note: Though most powerlifting and olympic formulas don't work properly when applied to grip, there must be a fair formula taking into account bodyweight and strength.

This will be an interesting and sticky topic though, because heavier competitors will be lobbying for one extreme while the few lighter guys are doing the opposite. In situations like this, the middleground is hardly ever the right option either...

[EricMilfeld]

Maybe if the weight class records recorded over at the NAGS site were made more easily visible to the strength world as a whole it would be a step in the right direction.

Also, you'll notice that David Horne is like a one-man promotional whirlwind for the sport over in Britain. The number of names I've added to the list of athletes as a result of all the contests he's organized is very impressive. And he's got guys competing at all different weight classes. They're just not contesting torsion spring grippers and axle. Maybe he could weigh-in...

Furthermore, in powerlifting the lightest three weight classes were always historically small in participation. The middle weight classes were most popular, with another dip in participation in the heaviest classes. I think this represented a cross-slice of mens' body weights in general, and makes sense if you look at it like that. Grip is still in the process of breaking away from the "bodyweight makes no difference bias" which helped lead it to become an endeavor for mainly big to huge guys. And these guys get most of the press at IronMind and fitness events by virtue of the fact they lift the most. I think this can and will change over time. In fact, I see it already changing.

[Colt]

As a first time promoter and my event still 3 weeks away I am not completely qualified to chime in, but my eyes are being opened daily to the myriad problems grip sport faces. For me I believe we need to decide where and how we want grip sport to grow - if it is a hobby for anyone to try and they can have fun, or a sport that unless you are setting records it isn't enjoyable. I vote for the former and as such am promoting my event more like a 5k, where there is free swag for all competitors, spectators are encouraged, and participating is celebrated (perhaps excessively). People running in a "warrior run" don't care if they finish 1st they just want a picture of them doing something cool to show their friends on facebook. Once they get an event under their belt my hope is that they come back with the goal of setting personal bests. Trying to have powerlifting meets with grip sport events isn't getting enough attention. Road races have age brackets and maybe time qualifications for the boston marathon but there isn't as much red tape as we are making for ourselves here. I hope this isn't coming off as a rant, I truly want our sport to grow and will fall in line with whatever is decided, this is just my 2 cents.

[Cannon]

In smaller powerlifting events they use wilks points to judge winner. bigger contests that have enough lifters use weight classes.

I think that in some of Finnish iron hand contests they have under 90kg class but not sure how popular or useful it is. Maybe Juha could tell since he has competed much longer.

The Wilks stuff breaks down in light of actual performances sometimes. For example, when the "Elite" totals were established for the lighter classes I believe Wilks or a similar formula was used to arrive at the lower weight class requirements. At the time I had all three World Records (gripper, axle, 2HP) for the 66kg class and yet the "Elite" standard was set well above those marks. I still have 2 of those World Records and if you add in Conner's axle record then we make it as a team . I know it should be uncommon for a single person to make the Elite total, but....

[Cannon]

I have been a fairly active competitor and have historically been one of the lightest guys at any given contest. I think technical lifts can help the smaller weight classes. "Technical" might be the wrong word, but I cannot think of another. I mean the fiddly smaller lifts like coin, hub, stub, etc.

I won a local leg of WSH in 2011 or 2012. Can't remember which year now. I legitimately beat Chris Mathison and Adam Glass for 1st place overall. The lighter Grip Topz events suited me well and I made up a lot of ground by training those hard. Adam did bomb the 2HP which took him out of the running, but Chris Mathison logged successful lifts in all events and I beat him straight up. When you're contesting events where maxes are under 50lbs, then it drastically flattens the advantage of being a bigger person, in my opinion. Where I struggle to complete is any event where it's possible to lift over 200-300lbs. I can't lift that much weight comfortably no matter the implement.

Otherwise, I have competed solely for my own personal achievement. Challenging myself to set PRs, set records, and do better than before because I feel that's all there is out there for me. This interests me, but I would welcome the chance to compete head-to-head with more of my peers.

Other historically good events for lighter guys have been endurance events at lighter weights. Plate pinch holds, smaller block weight holds, or repping out on something at a lighter weight. Adam contested a thick rope hang once, the lighter guys excelled. Tiered gripper events are good. Like three levels, a 2.5, 2, and 1. Rep out on the 2.5 at 3pts per rep, then the 2 at 2pts per rep, and finally the 1 at 1pt per rep. I have generally been competitive with bigger guys in those kinds of events.

[Electron]

In smaller powerlifting events they use wilks points to judge winner. bigger contests that have enough lifters use weight classes.

I think that in some of Finnish iron hand contests they have under 90kg class but not sure how popular or useful it is. Maybe Juha could tell since he has competed much longer.

The Wilks stuff breaks down in light of actual performances sometimes. For example, when the "Elite" totals were established for the lighter classes I believe Wilks or a similar formula was used to arrive at the lower weight class requirements. At the time I had all three World Records (gripper, axle, 2HP) for the 66kg class and yet the "Elite" standard was set well above those marks. I still have 2 of those World Records and if you add in Conner's axle record then we make it as a team . I know it should be uncommon for a single person to make the Elite total, but....

I respectfully disagree, not with the idea, but rather with the example.

If a class record is based off only a few data points, it's not absurd that the Elite total is higher than the actual records.

The Wilks formula in particular does act up when you calculate for very heavy athletes (350+lbs) but the formula that was used to determine Elite totals for lower weight classes is not too high to achieve.

My example without trying to boast: Texas Crew.

Eric pulled elite simultaneously in two classes at Nationals (74k+83k), Michael can pull elite in his class (74k), and I am able to pull an elite total in my class (59k) while weighing in 20lbs under.

I am not trying to slash your performance in any way, because I know that 1. Your back has been a source of issues for your axle, and 2. You are a BEAST at grippers. A real life gripper Velociraptor.

PS. You guys know something that doesn't work as well as the Elite formula though?

The one handed elite numbers.....

[Massey]

Maybe have a pro class and an amateur class? With weight classes

[KRC]

Just want to add a vote for Wilks or a similar formula here. It's more sophisticated than simply "% of BW lifted"..

[Juha Harju]

Maybe have a pro class and an amateur class? With weight classes

I've tried this same thing. Nothing reason that big pro dudes and amateur dudes compares to each other.

[CANCRUSHER]

I think that this is the same issue with powerlifting guys will not try cause to get good at anything STRENGTH related you will need years of dedication.

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by CANCRUSHER

[CANCRUSHER]

As a first time promoter and my event still 3 weeks away I am not completely qualified to chime in, but my eyes are being opened daily to the myriad problems grip sport faces. For me I believe we need to decide where and how we want grip sport to grow - if it is a hobby for anyone to try and they can have fun, or a sport that unless you are setting records it isn't enjoyable. I vote for the former and as such am promoting my event more like a 5k, where there is free swag for all competitors, spectators are encouraged, and participating is celebrated (perhaps excessively). People running in a "warrior run" don't care if they finish 1st they just want a picture of them doing something cool to show their friends on facebook. Once they get an event under their belt my hope is that they come back with the goal of setting personal bests. Trying to have powerlifting meets with grip sport events isn't getting enough attention. Road races have age brackets and maybe time qualifications for the boston marathon but there isn't as much red tape as we are making for ourselves here. I hope this isn't coming off as a rant, I truly want our sport to grow and will fall in line with whatever is decided, this is just my 2 cents.

Very good points here.To me grip as something strength related must be something serious.You dont laugh when you are about to deadlift and you dont laugh if you are trying to close a new gripper or bending and edgin.

You can play tennis,or ping pong you cant play strength.

[Buccos1]

I will speak from my own recent experience at Gripmas (my first grip competition ... I had almost no training in grip prior to this too, just as a point-of-reference).

I got into, and became interested in some of the different grip exercises and events, due to taking a "break" from steel bending and mixing things up a little with all of my other training. I went in with the mentality that I didn't care about any head-to-head stuff and wanted to test myself in an event-type setting. I knew that I had zero chance of doing anything impressive, especially with fat bar stuff and only having tried the Euro setup once before. But I knew I had to start somewhere, and I did. (I also watched some videos of past events, to get a feel of things. I think this helped my decision to enter.) Maybe to entice new entrants, some footage of past events could be put together, to alleviate some of the unknown, and to show that it's not dog-eat-dog stuff.

The competition itself was great. I knew going in that I would aim to do more events in the future. But, it was great to see first-hand everything and how things moved. Talking with someone new, maybe it'd help if they had someone at the event (like a handler at a PL meet), who could offer some guidance. Someone there with experience who could "look-out" for this person. I like a lot of what Cannon said above, regarding the events (more) suited for lighter competitors. I have had a hard time with wide-pinch stuff, fat bar (etc.). But, with the GripTopz stuff and the Hub, I have made consistent progress, because I haven't been limited by hand size. If I wasn't improving, it was due to not training enough or just being too weak on the event. With the axle, there's been improvement, but it's been incremental. Including some of these events might be enough to sway someone "on the fence" into entering, and get a lot more of the smaller-sized hand/lower weight class people out competing.

[odin]

More one-handed events would help I think as it helps reduce the advantage given by body size and less technique is involved.

Also, any type of gripper event should not involve setting (Like Chris Rice's use of chokers, ISG and the new device he's developing). Setting has next-to-nothing to do with grip strength.

[kodyburns]

I think what the sport needs is more emphasis on weight classes. This is what brought me to the sport. I wanted to know how my strength compared with other men the same size around the world. I doubt I would have been so eager to compete or compare numbers with guys outweighing me by 25-50 pounds. For fun yeah, but competing and driving around the country only to get a mudhole stomped in your @$$ isnt very inviting for future competitors. Respect for lighter weight guys is key I think. The big boys have always gotten the respect because they're lifting the most weight. The majority of people see this as being the better performance. As we all know smaller guys who do big things just dont seem to gain the respect across the board. I think it comes down to people of a lighter weight feeling more respected for feats done with less weight. Maybe better prizes per weight class would be more of an incentive. Publicity is a big one I think too. Not many people I talk to daily know anything about grip. I think people in positional power roles that have the power and popularity to influence the masses of people can help tremendously too. The big boys have always gotten the most attention in strength related sports and rightfully so. They have earned it. But the majority of people who have the passion and interest in the daily world are the normal size guys turning wrenches and working their butt off. When you can find a way to reach these guys and make them feel like theyre special and respected or potentially could be special then you have it. Personally my experiences with new guys is that they like to know where they stand from a world record standpoint. For instance, a friend of mine really took interest in grip training once I told him how close he was to the world record in a particular lift I was showing him. That made him think he actually had a chance to possibly contend a record or two if he worked at it and dug his heels into some training. This made a big difference in his future outlook of the sport I think.

[David Horne]

Eric,

I have found the best way to attract complete first-timers into the sport is to have quick contests (maybe 3 quick events), easy to do lifts. So yes no grippers, as this event will put a beginner off.

This is working in the tours around Britain right now. I am taking the sport to armwrestling, strongman, lifting clubs. But even more importantly to the general public. Setting up at various venues, and letting people have a go.

All the equipment fits easily in the boot of my car; calibrated scales, equipment, calibrated weights, chalk, etc. The event is quick, I have a chat with them, and help them, records are on offer, and medals are presented. Also most importantly we use timed holding events a lot more, as this helps total beginners with their weight selections.

So to recap, keep the events less technical, not hand sized based, not heavy, and you will interest people to have a go.

Hope this helps.

[Royz]

Hi Chris,

Since there is no such thing as a grip competition yet in Holland I'm far from being an expert but here are my thoughts on the subject.

Seems to me there is no such thing as a linear relation between weight and grip strenght. Apart from the events where you have to use heavy weights like Axle an Rolling thunder that is.

Just look at Kody's (former) world record in the 2HP. He dominated all the weight classes above him. Especially in all the pinch events where friction is al large part in the equation the size and width of one one's hand is probably as least as much a factor as weight is, probably more so.

I think if you want to give merit to weight classes there should also be a format for grip competitions. Right now there are a myriad of different grip feats to chose from and every venue has it's own pick from the pile. And new feats are being 'invented' on a weekly bases. Other lifting sports like weightlifing and powerlifting have a format. They are not performing different lifts every time they have a competition.

Right now grip competitions look like miniature strongmen competitions where contestants are being tested on different feats every time. Some feats return regularly others do not. There are no weightclasses in strongmen. There should be no weightclasses in gripsport, unless you also bring handsize into the calculation. Or unless you chose a format.

You could also ask the question: do you want grip to be a 'fun' sport like strongmen. Or a 'serious' sport like weightlifting?

[Sean Cashman]

I'm a complete newbie when it comes to grip and grip competitions. I've bent steel for many, many years but I do not really follow the trends and what is really going on in the world of grip very closely. So my perspective is one of a novice.

As a grip beginner I would definetly be interested in trying a competition that basically ran two events side by side. A novice event and an elite event. Having a novice category of some sort that ran less technical events in a simple easy format that was non-hand sized influenced would be appealing. At the same time I could watch the elite, big boys go at it. It would be a good opportunity to get into grip at a novice level and not feel like you were holding the elite guys up and taking up space almost feeling like a burden because you can't close a 1.5 gripper or because you don't know what a gripper is etc. Just getting an introduction to competitions and having some experienced guys give you some tips and pointers would be valuable. Watching the elite guys lift in more technical events would also give you a path to follow if you want to get more serious. It would open your eyes up to what can be accomplished if you want to get serious.

This sort of thing might help bridge the gap for the guy who lifts weights but doesn't want to dedicate a lot of time or monetary resources to grip work. You can show up at an event and compete in the novice/amateur division and have some fun. You could grab your friends, friends friends etc. and tell them to come and and test their grip strength, have some fun, drink a beer afterwards and watch the best in the business then go at it in an elite division. I think it all comes down to being able to offer the average Joe something without them having to enter into a serious competition. Hopefully the average Joe ends up loving it and getting serious.

[Jedd Johnson]

Some thoughts...

Getting Out there...

I am running my next comp in Horseheads, NY, about an hour or so from my house. I already have like 6 people who have no idea what grip is interested in competing, just to have a way to test themselves.

People want a way to push themselves. They just aren't aware grip exists yet. it can be a very fun and rewarding way to train, especially if people are driven.

People wanting info...

I have had several people write me the last few weeks asking about Grip Sport. It is growing.

Efforts of the whole group...

Without a marketing machine behind things it will always be a challenge to grow the sport. Each one of us can only do so much. There is a small group that is doing a lot but are maxed out and a huge group of people who are doing almost nothing.

[Billy Jack]

I'm a complete newbie when it comes to grip and grip competitions. I've bent steel for many, many years but I do not really follow the trends and what is really going on in the world of grip very closely. So my perspective is one of a novice.

As a grip beginner I would definetly be interested in trying a competition that basically ran two events side by side. A novice event and an elite event. Having a novice category of some sort that ran less technical events in a simple easy format that was non-hand sized influenced would be appealing. At the same time I could watch the elite, big boys go at it. It would be a good opportunity to get into grip at a novice level and not feel like you were holding the elite guys up and taking up space almost feeling like a burden because you can't close a 1.5 gripper or because you don't know what a gripper is etc. Just getting an introduction to competitions and having some experienced guys give you some tips and pointers would be valuable. Watching the elite guys lift in more technical events would also give you a path to follow if you want to get more serious. It would open your eyes up to what can be accomplished if you want to get serious.

This sort of thing might help bridge the gap for the guy who lifts weights but doesn't want to dedicate a lot of time or monetary resources to grip work. You can show up at an event and compete in the novice/amateur division and have some fun. You could grab your friends, friends friends etc. and tell them to come and and test their grip strength, have some fun, drink a beer afterwards and watch the best in the business then go at it in an elite division. I think it all comes down to being able to offer the average Joe something without them having to enter into a serious competition. Hopefully the average Joe ends up loving it and getting serious.

I agree with this opinion, which is one I also have had for a while. I think that to attract new participants to competitions, their needs to be a novice and a pro class. This is something that arm wrestling has done very well and it seems to have attracted many new faces to the sport. I understand that this will cause lengthier comps, but this can be offset, like the above poster said, by running both groups simultaneously. The pro folks could be contesting axle while the novices could be doing 2HP, etc..

Their could be clear-cut rules which differentiate novice and pro competitors. A novice threshold could be established for each lift and weight class, or a total for the big three (axle, grippers, 2hp). If you pass the total threshold for all big three lifts, you no longer compete as a novice. If you pass the novice threshold in say 3/5 contested events, you no longer get to compete as a novice, etc. I think this can help especially with those new people who may be strong, but do not know the proper techniques for each lift. Once a strong person gets 2-3 comps under their belt and gets the techniques down, they will probably qualify for pro and move up and make room for the other novices.

Your average strength guy who wants to go to a contest has an ego, and that ego is easily crushed when they are tossed into a weight class with Jedd, Andrew, Kody, etc.. It is no big deal to me because I do not do this for ego, but this will make most people who go to their first comp probably not come back.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Billy Jack

[Cannon]

Wasn't that the intention of the Elite status? They would only compete against each other and then "regular folks" might stand a chance?

[Eric Roussin]

Much of this has been discussed before, which resulted in the following:

http://www.gripsport.org/divisions.htm

I know when these divisions were created a few years ago, a few promoters offered them at their events (or at least a subset of them). I'm not exactly sure why they didn't really stick.

From my experience in promoting armwrestling tournaments, I know it can be hard creating "fair" divisions/classes when attendance numbers are low to begin with. The women's division is particularly tough. Many refuse to compete in an open weight class (in many cases understandably), but what's the point in having three weight classes with one competitor in each?