Bill Piche Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I was hungry (ok more than hungry) to close a #3 and become a COC back before I certified in 2001. Through the internet I was able to become friends with Steve Weiner. He was very hungry (to say the least) to do the same. I also was able to contact Wade Gillingham and Jim Ferry who had certified the year before I did. In fact, I ended up writing an article for MILO shortly after probing all of these guys for how they trained. The KTA program was also influenced (and RRBT!) by these early conversations as well. They were all done via email. I have gotten permission to share those old emails here in this thread in the history sub-forum. Thanks to the guys for allowing this to be shared. I will start with the first post tonight. Wade, Jim, and Steve all certified in 2000. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Awesome, should be good reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvance Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Can't wait to read this stuff Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Email Steve Weiner to Bill Piche, July 1, 1999 Bill-Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. At least I know there is somebodyas fanatical about closing the #3 gripper as I am. To answer your questionabout how Joe Kinney came up with the 75 pound figure is this: he told methat a friend of his who was able to close the #2 at first sight used hissecret weapon machine, and was able to close the #3 when he was able to hold75 lbs. absolutely pinned shut on his secret weapon. For some reason hispicture has not appeared in MILO yet, but he tells me it's true, and I'lltake his word for it, since he struck me as a real honest guy when we spoke.From the machine he sold me, I would consider this a pretty accurate measureof where you need to be. Your machine may be scaled a bit differently thanthe one that I bought from him, because you are almost at that poundagelevel. You aren't wrapping your thumb under the movement bar when doingnegatives, are you? You're probably not, but in case you are, you will bedefeating the purpose of the exercise. As for how much poundage Joe used,he told me that when he started using the secret weapon, he was able toclose the #3 already, and started at 100 pounds. When he worked up to the#4, he told me he was using in the area of 200 something pounds, but was notable to pin the handles shut. He told me that the weight would drag hisfingers down pretty fast, but he felt that he got something out of it. Hedid emphasize, however, that I should concentrate on the last few fractionsof an inch of the movement if I want to develop the strength to close the#3, beacause it's the last 1/2" of the movement that stops most people.Just for the hell of it, I have tried to close #4 as far as possible, andclosed it 1.5" out of the 3" range of motion. Of course I was not able tocheat it shut either! For this reason alone, I do not do negatives with it,as I am concentrating solely on the last bit of the range of motion, andbeyond. Joe could not emphasize the point of going beyond the range enoughduring our conversation. Have you tried closing the #2 with 3 fingers, orthe #1 with 2 fingers? If you haven't, try it, and let me know how you did.I've been successful myself at these "stunts"( done after a regular gripworkout to avoid injury), and you should be able to do it too, since itsounds like your strength level is similar to mine. Have you tried doingany negatives with the #3, and if you have, have you had any success holdingthe handles totally shut? I have not had any success with any of myattempts to do this, and it is pretty frustrating, since it is relativelyeasy to cheat the #3 shut, but really hard to hold shut that last eighth ofan inch. The rolling thunder is something else, isn't it? I have had RTfor about six months, but started regular work on it only 3 weeks ago. Ihave successfully lifted 170 lbs. so far with either hand (weight of loadingpin not included), and want 200 in a bad way by the end of the year. Alittle over a pound increase per week will get me to my goal!! I read inthe recent MILO that the world record lift with the RT is 265 lbs.!! Prettydamn incredible if you ask me. Anyway, drop me a line when you get achance. Steve Email from Bill Piche to Steve Weiner, July 8, 1999 Steve,How's it going? How's the grip workouts going?I have skipped one grip workout this week to see what the effect willbe on Sat. I have a feeling it will be positive.I still can't get over how sore I still get even when I was doing twiceper week and just started again on the SW.Bill Steve's Response: Bill, It's going okay. Training has been good, too. I spoke to Joe Kinney lastFriday for about a half hour. He got me all psyched up. He told me toconcentrate on adding weight, so you force your body to trigger a "growstronger or die" response. Once you start using the secret weapon on aregular basis, the soreness should subside as your hands get used to it.Last Friday I worked out at Iron Island. Have you ever heard of it? Well,after my workout, I went to play with some of the "toys" they keep in thelot out back. One of them is a 306 pound anchor chain which consists if six51 lb. links. This is hooked up to a harness, and the object is to drag ituntil you drop. Dragging this monster over a dirt and pabble surface issheer murder. Do you subscibe to MILO? If you do, Dr. Ken Leistner wrotean article in the March, 1999 edition about this device, along with apicture. After the chain drag, it was off to flip the 500 lb. tractor tire.What made this tire so tough to fli[ was the fact that it has no treads, soyou have to dig your fingers under the bottom of the tire to start the lift.Two sets of 5-6 flips did me in. I then went home, tired fingers and all,and lashed into a workout on the secret weapon. Needless to say, I wasquite sore from this workout, but am more determined than ever to mash that#3!!Look forward to hearing from you soon.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Email from Steve Weiner to Bill Piche, July 10, 1999 Bill-Hope your workout goes well today. I had a good one last night, and I ampaying for it today!! Ah... sweet soreness!! Only a fellow 20 year veteranwould appreciate post workout soreness. I, too have been lifting for asimilar length of time, but I'm even "greener" than you when it comes togrip training, as I've only been doing this type of stuff for a year. Iattribute alot of my grip strength to the fact that over my 20 years oftraining I very rarely used straps. The only exercise I used to use them onwere deadlifts. After I read Dinosaur Training, which I'm sure you'veprobably read, I decided to try deadlifting without straps. Lo and behold,my grip was more than sufficient enough to hold the weight. I've done a 540deadlift with no grip problems at all, and have done an 855 deadliftlockout(moved the bar about 4"), without any grip problems. I have alsodone a 505 deadlift using a 2" thick bar with no problem. I'm sure you'veheard of Richard Sorin. If you haven't, he was the first guy to close the#3. Anyway, there was a picture of him in an old issue of MILO that showshim doing a deadlift lockout with 1301 lbs. This is NOT a misprint!! I'dhate to shake hands with this guy! To answer your other questions, I amfrom the New York area, am 6'2", and usually weigh in the neighborhood of240. Do you live near any well known gyms? Look forward to hearing fromyou. Pile on the weight!!! Go get that #3!!!! We will defeat it!!!Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The good old days. Is this ez-board days or even before that? There are probably very few ez-board guys left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McCarter Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 There's good stuff in here! I will be looking forward to what's coming next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 Thursday, July 22, 1999 3:25 PM Hey Steve,How are things going? I was on vacation for a week. Went home andtrained in my parents basement just like when I started. I had notdone plate pinch grips and ended up with a new PR of 72.5. I use 2 ofthe fat lipped tens and add weight with a belt through the middle. Ihad not done these since going back to the Secret Weapon. I wasshocked actually. I think part of the large gain was due to morefriction on the outside of the 10's.The vacation set me back on consistent use of the SW, but I am gettingback in the saddle again this weekend.Bill August 7, 1999 Bill- Sorry I took so long to respond, as I have been working monstrous amounts oftime as of late. However, this has been a good thing, because it forced meto consolidate my grip training time. This has been a good thing, becauseit has allowed me more recovery time. Anyway, last night, I came within3/16" of closing #3 with my right hand, and 7/16" with my left. I can getthese precise measurements, because I have pieces of wood of specificthicknesses laying around my home gym to gauge my progress. My "winning"training program is pretty brief, but has seemed to start me on the road toprogress again. The way that it felt when I almost shut that darned #3 wasgreat! I exploded into the movement, and it really felt like I was going toget it. So close, but I WILL get it soon. My grip routine is now thefollowing, performed twice a week at the end of my workouts: #1-2warmupsets of 5 reps, #2-2 warmup sets of 1 rep, #3 1 attempt, Secret Weapon-3-4sets of holds. That is it!! Brief, but brutal. The warmup sets areperformed as explosively as possible, to get my hands ready for what's tocome. Well, it's nice weather here, and I'm off to the beach. Look forwardto hearing about your progress.Later,StevePS After I close the #3, my next goal is to pinch grip a pair of 45's.Personal best so far is 2 35's with 10 lbs. additional via an adjustabledumbell put through the holes of the 35's for a total of 80 lbs. Like you,I have not worked these in awhilw, but will give them some attention once mypicture gets into MILO. I EXPECT to see yours there too!! Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 8:04 AM All right! Way to go man! It's YOURS! I am still plugging away. I actually have not tried to close the #3for about a month or so. The SW is actually allowing me to recoverbetter. I think the neg's with the #4 were overtraining me and notbuilding in the most important part. I am now doing the SW twice aweek as well. I emailed Dr. Strossen about two finger humb pinches and what was "good". He is going to ask some of his mutant gripmasters about it. I've also got someone working on a prototype grip device that could beinvaluable. We shall see. I will let you know when and if that happenssince I get to be the tester. Bill Bill- You've got me really curious. What aspect of the grip will this new machinework? Crushing strength, I assume, or pinch strength?Steve Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 8:11 AM Steve, What wou say if someone could come up with a way to easily do cheats onthe COC's? That is, get them to the final closed position (handlestouching) without busting a gut.Including the #4...Specificity DOES come into play with the grippers as you know. That'swhy, unless you can fully close the grippers (in our case the 4) forcheats, those as an exercise run short after a short while. Thanks toyour data as well as my experience, I got off of doing those as themain focus. BUT, what if we could work that last 1/4 to 1/2 inch usingthe #4 doing cheats and actually get it to the handle touch positionfor each rep? You can't get better than using an actual gripper forthese!Work beyond the range with the SW AND also work the last 1/2-3/4 inchfrom the handle touch position with a #4. It's not an easy problem to solve. It may not even be possible..but wewon't know unless we try!More SW tonight! Hey, where are you at now on the SW?Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightyjoe Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 Here's some pics of a Warren Tetting #2 I got from Bill for the museum that Bill says was instrumental in his Road to the #3! Hope you enjoy these pics of a rare gripper! BTW, I rated this gripper and it came out at 114 lbs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 August 10, 1999 Bill-This sounds very interesting, as no energy would be wasted on closing theselittle monsters. I am using 61.25 on the SW as of tonight. I did not do aswell tonight on the #3 with my right hand. I got it to 1/4" with the right,but my left improved slightly to 3/8". I really do not consider the loss of1/16" from one workout to another a loss of progress, as on Tuesdays, I dodeadlifts, and hit a new PR of 550. So, my grip is alittle bit sapped bythe time I get to my COC/SW workout. Coming within 1/4" or less on aconsistent basis is grest improvement over a few months ago. The #3 has analmost spongy feel to it now. It is strange, but that is why I feel likeI'm breaking through the remaining barrier that lies ahead of me. I am veryconfident that I will do better on Friday, as I do no exercises that willtire the grip. I'll keep you posted. Let me know how your progress isgoing once you get back into the swing of things.Steve Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 1:25 PM Steve,Did you read where there are now 25 COC's? Whoa! Last count from MILOwas 18. I wonder what gives? I believe that was your post on OLD School?I'm training tomorrow and really looking forward to it as usual.On your SW, do both your middle fingers touch your palm? The reason Iasked is I purposely tried to err on the tighter side when shaving themetal handle. Bill Bill, I read that too, and yes, it was I who posted that message. I spoke toRandy Strossen one time about the recent growth of the COC list. Hebelieves that there is just more of an interest in this thing than there wasa couple of years ago. It made sense to me, as you and I will soon makethis list, and I never even heard of a COC gripper until 1998 when I firstread Dinosaur Training. To answer your final question, Just my middlefinger touches my palm, but not my ring finger, although it comes veryclose. I have not progressed any more on the grippers for the last coupleof weeks, but I'm a persistent S.O.B., and I will improve. Typing is a bitawkward, as I just finished my grip workout a few minutes ago. Have a goodworkout tomorrow! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 9:33 PM Steve,How is the training going!? I am still plugging along. Slow but sure.The #4 actually felt spongy when I did my one attempt at a close andthen neg. At the top part of course. I am not picking up a #3 and trying it until I can mash it. I don'twant to get into the mind games and go 1/16 at a time. Getdiscouraged, get pumped, get discouraged, etc. So, I decided to goPAST it in a sense. I now try to do the #3, but with two fingers! Yup. And with a cheat, it no longer kills my two fingers! I have onlybeen trying it for two workouts now...I'll let you know. I don't wantto get into the damn mind game thing and want to CRUSH the thing. Noquestion on the close. We shall see. I am still focusing on the SW of course...Bill September 2, 1999: I think not playing mind games for every 1/16" is probably a good idea, as sometimes the mere misplacement of the gripper in your hand can rob you of a few fractionsof an inch of movement. I am still plugging away as you are, but I amtrying something a bit different. Since my grip workouts were always at theend of my workout, which usually involves some sort of pulling movement, myhands would not be as fresh as if I did my grip workout first, or on adifferent day entirely. I now am seperating my grip workouts onto Mondayand Thursdays, and my regular lifting sessions will be on Tuesdays andFridays. I am actually trying this at the suggestion of Joe Kinney, as hesuggested this the last time we spoke. I'll see how this works for a coupleof months. Whatever it takes, I will find a way to succeed. I do like yourtwo finger idea. How close in can you hold the #3 handles on negatives withyour two fingers? These sound pretty brutal. You can't be doing too manyof these, can you? How far away can you get the #4? I have actually gottenthe handles less than 1.25" away with either hand. You are probably aroundthat area, too I would guess. Damn it, Bill, we had both better be in thatnext MILO catalog!! Maybe we will be the first Captains of Crush of theyear 2000. I look forward to hearing about your progress. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 Sent: Sunday, September 05, 1999 8:42 PMHey Steve,Did you see someone supposedly closed the #4? Dave Brown? Never heardof him and he isn't listed for the #3. Or should it be Ken Brown?I did the #3 again -- giving it a ride with two fingers at the very endof my workout again. About 1.25 to 1.5 inches. Hurt more than lasttime for some reason. Could have been position as it is somewhatawkward with the fingers on the very end.Overall it was a good workout for grip. For my squat and dead, itsucked. I irritated my lower back last week. I have a trick lowerback from years of crappy form in the squat and deadlift (formercompetitive powerlifer). I had to cruise through this workout as itwas bugging me and that means "back off" or get injured now. On the SW, I am going to try and up the weight on the SW consistentlyand see how high I can get without it breaking my fingers off. HAH!Oh yeah. I emailed Dr. Strossen about the error in the catalog and whatJoe Kinney recommends. Did you catch that. It says Joe recommends thenext gripper up over what you can already close. That's wrong ofcourse. It's the next gripper up over what you are TRYING toclose..your goal. I haven't heard back from him yet.Bill Sent Sept 6, 1999: Bill- I saw that, too. My first thought that it had to be Ken Brown, too, butfrom the description of the guy, it sounds as he is much larger than KenBrown. Either Ken Brown has gotten bigger, or this is a different guy.They said this guy is a Highland games athlete, as well. What's interestingabout this, is that I e-mailed Steve Pulcinella(I'm sure you have heard ofhim), and asked him why he's not a certified C.O.C. He said that closing #3doesn't mean too much to him, and that he knows several people on theHighlands game circuit who can close #3, but aren't on the list. He alsosaid that he knows a guy who can close a #3 simultaneously with both hands.I'm wondering if this is the guy. If I find out any more, I'll let youknow.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifesnotfair Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 It's actually quite fun to read this, so thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Read through everything posted so far. Great read. Thanks for posting Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Didn't read much, but I can't wait to. I have had a few conversations with Steve Weiner as well, plus I have made him submit to the Figure 4 Napalm Lock, so once I am done with my yard Sale, I will be diving into this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 Here's a picture of my #3 cert. I was using this to test the new gallery feature on the forum index page for most recent images. http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?app=gallery&image=11082 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 Sept 6, 1999: Bill-What board did you get this post from? I can't seem to find it on OldSchool. For some reason if it is on Primordial, I'm out of luck, since mycomputer can't handle the graphics.Steve-----Original Message-----From: Bill Piche [mailto:hardtraining@yahoo.com]Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 2:14 PMTo: Weiner, StaceySubject: Two New COC's!Almost like you predicted it from talking to Steve P!TWO New Captains of Crush! These guys are a far cry from Joe Kinney insize. More like MONSTERS!BillPosted by Kit "Old Dude" Sonesen, Sacramento, CA, USA, Earth on Monday,6 September 1999, at 1:52 p.m.Yesterday at the World Heavy Athletics Championships at the Pleasantonfairgrounds, two new Captains of Crush were identified by Dale Harder,author of the Strength and Speed Ratings book which is something on theorder of a Guiness Book of World Records for athletics. Dave Brown (6'4", 365lbs) and Jeff Bains (6'6", 290-300lbs) both closedthe IronMind #3 gripper in front of witnesses. Dale reports Dave closedthe #3 easily and Jeff did so but with a bit more effort. In bothcases, the handles were closed beyond any shadow of adoubt...closed...end of story. No reports on the IronMind #4 so the assumption is that neither man wasable to completely close it. Joe Kinney remains the only man on theplanet to have closed #4. Sent: Sunday, September 26, 1999 9:53 AMSteve,How's it going! How's the experiment going? Did youtry the higher rep stuff? And, how about the griptraining only? I am still avoiding trying to close the #3 with myright hand until I can LOCK 75 in the SW. My thumb strength continues to improve the best whichis weird. I am doing the Titan Telegraph with 45 anddoing a hold with it. Done at the end of the workout. Bill, It's going okay, thanks. I have only been doing the high volume stuff fortwo weeks now, so it's too early to really tell how I am doing with it. Theone note of encouragement, though, is that my first attempt with # 3 in 3weeks went to less than 1/4", for the first time in quite awhile. This feltgood, and I am once again optimistic, because for a couple of weeks myprogress started to slide backwards. One thing I have added to my griptraining starting this week is the use of block weights, like JohnBrookfield mentions in his book. I started by getting a 50 pound Yorkdumbbell, and sawed the ends off. This was a good workout itself, as ittook about 45 minutes to complete the task. I did block tosses and cleanswith the blocks. My forearms feel fried! Brookfield gives these implementsvery high praise in his book, as well as when I spoke with him. I amconfident that I have found a winning formula to help me break through myplateau. By the way, 45 pounds is pretty impressive on TTK. Was this withtwo hands, I assume? I saw your letter in MILO. After people see your nameon the COC list, they'll be able to say, "I know that name sounds familiar."Have you tried block weights? If you haven't, you should. Not only arethey effective, they are fun. Anyway, to sum it up, the first week I did atotal of 35 reps per hand with # 2, in sets of 4-5. As soon as reps losetheir explosiveness, I stop. The second week, I did 50 reps in sets of 4-5.I will continue to add 10-15 reps per week depending on feel. I havecorresponded with Kevin Fulton, and he detailed his COC training for me. Hewas stuck at 1/2" away before starting the high volume stuff, so being lessthan 1/4" myself at the start of this program really psyches me up. Kevinseems like a really nice guy. The training on the COC is done once perweek, so there is plenty of recuperation time, which is key. I'll keep youposted. Please let me know when you can hold the SW with 75 pounds, and letme know how this correlates to # 3. Get psyched!! We are going to do it!!Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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