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Rich Williams


Hubgeezer

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but at an Expo - there's a lot of things going on for them to choose from - a guy squeezing a gripper or a half naked lady handing out free stuff - guess where most guys are headed for?

You are right. The answer to "growing the sport" has been out there all along. It worked for Weider, time to give it a go for the good of grip... :)

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The Euro pinch device, adjustable for hand size as it is, is a vastly superior device to test pinch strength compared to hubs. Very few initiated would argue with that.

Adding a hub lift as a pinch event is, however, better than having no pinch-like event at all in a grip contest.

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Randy,

You are certainly right about familiarity. I have never understood the attraction of having a medley, for example, as part of a grip competition. It gives a competing organiser a huge, and I do emphasize huge, advantage. It would be more appropriate to have it as a non-competitive fun thing after a contest.

What is bad about this contest, though, is that there's nowhere to hide—the strongest of the strong will be there, nobody has an advantage in terms of being familiar with the events, etc., so it's not the type of contest everyone would want to compete in.

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pinch-like event.

I like that. Pinch-like event...

I would not argue that on the Hub. It is its own little animal, related to Pinch.

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pinch-like event.

I like that. Pinch-like event...

I would not argue that on the Hub. It is its own little animal, related to Pinch.

That's my point. Hub is a great event in it itself but it's not a pinch grip. I don't think there's really any further explanation needed - athletes in the grip community understand the difference. My point in this entire thread is it's great Odd is having this contest but if it's going to be billed as a record breaker event for the world's best to come and break grip records then every primary aspect of grip should have a representative event. A clean is kind of like a deadlift so should we determine who has the worlds strongest back by contesting a max clean?? Good luck to Odd and all the athletes. Looks like a great event. Hopefully it will only get better in the future.

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The biggest complaint I have with the so called main stage contests is that there is no "pinch" test involved. We finally are getting all these monsters together but its the same old tests each time -there are some other components of grip I would enjoy seeing - such as levering and pinch.

I couldn't agree more Chris. And BTW, a hub is not a test of pinch despite what RJS likes to say. I wish everyone all the best with this event and hats off to Odd for putting it together but RT, Axle, Anvil, and holding a gripper 3/4" from shut are all events that play to the strength of a particular type of hand. I don't care for the trend that well publicized "world records" are catering to a particular group of athletes. There are a lot of strong grips out there that are completely shut out in this type of contest.

Wade -

Why isn't the Hub a test of pinch?

Also, I think this is an extremely democratic grip contest: open registration with standard, widely-available and well- established equipment, etc.

On the CoC Silver Bullet, it's a perfect gripper event whether you think your hands are too big, too small or just the right size for grippers, so that, too, opens the door for more people.

What is bad about this contest, though, is that there's nowhere to hide—the strongest of the strong will be there, nobody has an advantage in terms of being familiar with the events, etc., so it's not the type of contest everyone would want to compete in.

Randy - the hub is pinch like and supporting like - it's a mix. It's not a traditional pinch grip test like the old standard of pinching 2 York 45's flat side out or the modern day standard of two hand pinch on a Euro device.

Yes, hats off to Odd for creating an open registration contest on standard, widely available equipment. There will be no unfair advantage in the equipment availability category.

Yes, the Silver Bullet is a good event that evens the field when it comes to hand size, is visually appealing and easy to contest and understand. I don't believe however you will get direct carry over to a full/partial range motion gripper close that brings the handles together. The fact that Mark Felix was the original world record holder in this event supports this. At the time he couldn't close a #3 or maybe had just gotten to the point of being able to. Mark has a great grip but is not the world's best at crushing strength...not even close.

On your last comment you act like anyone who doesn't show up is either weak or a coward. Would you feel the same way and would you get the same group of contestants if the events were:

1) Two hand pinch on a Euro device for max

2) SORINEX Mighty Mitts pinch block for max

3) 50lb Blob farmers walk for distance

4) Silver Bullet hold for time

5) Hub lift for max

This contest is being marketed as a "Record Breaker" contest but the majority of events in this contest cater to a specific type of strength - supporting grip. I'm not trying to be overly critical here - I support Odd putting this contest on and appreciate him trying to bring this sport to a larger stage. What I take issue with and what I said is I don't like the trend that the established "world records" do not encompass all areas of grip strength. If a contest is going to be labeled as a record breaker meet then there should be an opportunity for all types of grip strength to be on display.

Wade

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A 1" vertical bar event would be interesting. It would still test Support Grip. But it is an event that strongman competitors seem to be relatively weak at for the most part. Might be that it is too small for their hands to get an efficient grip on though.

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I dont think it's hand size, i'm a strongman competitor with big hand and perform very well in verticle bar. Most strongman competitors are actually pretty poor at tests of crushing grip strength. A lot of grip guys would do better in arm over arms etc

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I was the judge for the first Silver Bullet competition. Some notable strongmen scored a "zero" on it (Haugen, Urbank). I think it's a reasonable test of crushing grip strength. The winners on it are going to tend to be the big crushers. Some changes were made to the rules after the first competition that will prevent someone like Mark Felix from holding the world record again.

Wade, the first time the Silver Bullet was contested, and Felix was holding the gripper, I was watching rather incredulously as to what I was seeing. I actually said "time" right before the weight dropped, because it seemed like the flesh from his hand was oozing over the device. His hands are unusually large, by any standard. Haugen and Strossen were a bit skeptical of what I was describing, but they were eventually convinced (it may have been a photo that convinced RJS) and rules were changed. The second year of the competition, with the new rules in place, Mark's time was significantly less. I don't think he was less strong than he was before, the kinks in the rules had been ironed out. For an event on a stage, Silver Bullet is a great crush event.

There is someone traveling from Russia this weekend, I suspect, just to take an assault at the record, or perhaps just to go head-to-head against the current record holder. Likewise, there is someone traveling 3000 miles from the East Coast just to go head-to-head against the current record holder on another event. No prize money involved. I understand your comments on "pinch", but what is happening on a different level here is, without doubt, unprecedented. And let's be honest here. There are some who don't see it that way simply because of who is sponsoring it, because it does not fit criteria that they personally designed, or because some rules of Grip Sport are not being followed. It looks to be a remarkable challenge, and it does not "hurt" me in any way that others can't get behind it. Some here are independent and offer their opinions freely. You, Wade, certainly fall into that category. But sometimes people won't show their cards until this person or that person weighs in. Pushing 60 years old, I am way too late to ever be admitted to the Cool Kids Club, and I think it is a good idea for different ideas to be expressed freely on a forum like this.

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A 1" vertical bar event would be interesting. It would still test Support Grip. But it is an event that strongman competitors seem to be relatively weak at for the most part. Might be that it is too small for their hands to get an efficient grip on though.

V-Bar appears to be dying a death - this is a shame.

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Mike - you're editorializing in response to my post so I feel the need to respond, again. My comments have nothing to do with the sponsor or how the criteria fit into the rules of Grip Sport. Just to be clear those are your words, not mine, and if they are in respose to anything I said I think you are misunderstanding me. I have known Odd for years and wish him success with this contest. I'm not trying to be unsupportive of him, his contest, or the sponsor. In my opinion anyway you look at it this is a onesided contest and the winner will be the one with the best supporting grip which will also most likely be the man that has the greatest overall strength as that oftentimes is what determines who wins a supporting grip contest. I dont like that trend - thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it. There should be at least one traditional pinch event in this contest to go along the the "pinch like" hub, and 2 pinch events if you are going to keep both the axle and RT. That to me is fair and creates a much more dynamic contest and broadens the interest to a wider group.

...and by the way...anyone as old as you thats still grippin' is in the Cool Kids Club...dont kid yourself!

Wade

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This is a great contest - no question about it. My two cents is it should be called the IronMind equipment record breakers contest as the events are just that. IM makes great stuff - readily available and high quality, no doubt about that at all. If there is any weakness its that there are a couple areas of grip strength that IM doesn't make a product for that meets main stage criteria as well as these do. Pinch is one of the major tests of grip historically - 2 - 45s - 3-25s - 5 -10s - Blobs etc are done (or tried) in pretty much every gym any more. Disregarding the Euro device that David Horne came up with as I understand it's not going to be easy to use this adjustable device in a main stage kind of situation - I think making a fixed width, easily and quickly loadable setup of some kind is over due at places like the Fit Expo and the Arnold. Pick a width that isn't only favorable to very large or small hands - perhaps the width of 2 standard 45# plates or around 2 1/2" - put it on the main stage along with all the other IM products. Make it such that it could be used with two or one hands in a setting that builds to a who can lift the most weight situation. I think it would be a positive addition.

Wrist strength is the other test I'd enjoy seeing - but let's save that for later.

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The biggest complaint I have with the so called main stage contests is that there is no "pinch" test involved. We finally are getting all these monsters together but its the same old tests each time -there are some other components of grip I would enjoy seeing - such as levering and pinch.

I couldn't agree more Chris. And BTW, a hub is not a test of pinch despite what RJS likes to say. I wish everyone all the best with this event and hats off to Odd for putting it together but RT, Axle, Anvil, and holding a gripper 3/4" from shut are all events that play to the strength of a particular type of hand. I don't care for the trend that well publicized "world records" are catering to a particular group of athletes. There are a lot of strong grips out there that are completely shut out in this type of contest.

Wade -

Why isn't the Hub a test of pinch?

Also, I think this is an extremely democratic grip contest: open registration with standard, widely-available and well- established equipment, etc.

On the CoC Silver Bullet, it's a perfect gripper event whether you think your hands are too big, too small or just the right size for grippers, so that, too, opens the door for more people.

What is bad about this contest, though, is that there's nowhere to hide—the strongest of the strong will be there, nobody has an advantage in terms of being familiar with the events, etc., so it's not the type of contest everyone would want to compete in.

Randy - the hub is pinch like and supporting like - it's a mix. It's not a traditional pinch grip test like the old standard of pinching 2 York 45's flat side out or the modern day standard of two hand pinch on a Euro device.

Yes, hats off to Odd for creating an open registration contest on standard, widely available equipment. There will be no unfair advantage in the equipment availability category.

Yes, the Silver Bullet is a good event that evens the field when it comes to hand size, is visually appealing and easy to contest and understand. I don't believe however you will get direct carry over to a full/partial range motion gripper close that brings the handles together. The fact that Mark Felix was the original world record holder in this event supports this. At the time he couldn't close a #3 or maybe had just gotten to the point of being able to. Mark has a great grip but is not the world's best at crushing strength...not even close.

On your last comment you act like anyone who doesn't show up is either weak or a coward. Would you feel the same way and would you get the same group of contestants if the events were:

1) Two hand pinch on a Euro device for max

2) SORINEX Mighty Mitts pinch block for max

3) 50lb Blob farmers walk for distance

4) Silver Bullet hold for time

5) Hub lift for max

This contest is being marketed as a "Record Breaker" contest but the majority of events in this contest cater to a specific type of strength - supporting grip. I'm not trying to be overly critical here - I support Odd putting this contest on and appreciate him trying to bring this sport to a larger stage. What I take issue with and what I said is I don't like the trend that the established "world records" do not encompass all areas of grip strength. If a contest is going to be labeled as a record breaker meet then there should be an opportunity for all types of grip strength to be on display.

Wade

Wade -

I think pinch grip is defined by whether or not the thumb is a prime mover:

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Main/crushedtodust.html

Also, I would argue that there are two classic feats pinch gripping: one is lifting old-style York plates by the hub and the other was lifting them by grabbing them with your thumb on one side and your other four fingers on the other.

I would say that Mark Felix's performance on the CoC Silver Bullet demonstrates my point about it neutralizing hand size on grippers: most guys who think their hands are suboptimally-sized for grippers, think they are too small, but Mark's, if anything, are too big, and that's why he has trouble at the end of the stroke on tougher grippers.

From a competition point of view, the weakness of the contest format you asked about (besides being loaded up for pinch gripping) is that so few people have access to/do some of these events, so what's really an excellent performance? Things like the Rolling Thunder and Apollon's Axle and Captains of Crush No. 3 gripper have been around a long time, are used worldwide, and have long, well-established competitive histories, so we really know what's a good performance and what's not.

When you only have three guys in the world eating license plates for time, it doesn't really tell you much about what rates as an outstanding performance, but eating hot dogs, is a completely different thing, so if I were looking for the champion speed eater, I'd look to the guys inhaling the hot dogs.

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I was the judge for the first Silver Bullet competition. Some notable strongmen scored a "zero" on it (Haugen, Urbank). I think it's a reasonable test of crushing grip strength. The winners on it are going to tend to be the big crushers. Some changes were made to the rules after the first competition that will prevent someone like Mark Felix from holding the world record again.

Wade, the first time the Silver Bullet was contested, and Felix was holding the gripper, I was watching rather incredulously as to what I was seeing. I actually said "time" right before the weight dropped, because it seemed like the flesh from his hand was oozing over the device. His hands are unusually large, by any standard. Haugen and Strossen were a bit skeptical of what I was describing, but they were eventually convinced (it may have been a photo that convinced RJS) and rules were changed. The second year of the competition, with the new rules in place, Mark's time was significantly less. I don't think he was less strong than he was before, the kinks in the rules had been ironed out. For an event on a stage, Silver Bullet is a great crush event.

There is someone traveling from Russia this weekend, I suspect, just to take an assault at the record, or perhaps just to go head-to-head against the current record holder. Likewise, there is someone traveling 3000 miles from the East Coast just to go head-to-head against the current record holder on another event. No prize money involved. I understand your comments on "pinch", but what is happening on a different level here is, without doubt, unprecedented. And let's be honest here. There are some who don't see it that way simply because of who is sponsoring it, because it does not fit criteria that they personally designed, or because some rules of Grip Sport are not being followed. It looks to be a remarkable challenge, and it does not "hurt" me in any way that others can't get behind it. Some here are independent and offer their opinions freely. You, Wade, certainly fall into that category. But sometimes people won't show their cards until this person or that person weighs in. Pushing 60 years old, I am way too late to ever be admitted to the Cool Kids Club, and I think it is a good idea for different ideas to be expressed freely on a forum like this.

Mike -

Please: not old rules/new rules again. Here's what happened with Mark Felix on that attempt.

At the rules meeting, you, Odd and I agree that time would be called if 1) the Silver Bullet dropped or 2) the handles were seen to open. Of course, the expectation was that 1 would happen any time 2 did, but it was a good thing that we had 2 in there as backup and that we had an eagle-eyed referee because on that attempt, the gripper did open and Felix's bearpaw of a hand was keeping the Silver Bullet at least somewhat in place. Yes, there were tremendous sequence photos capturing the launch of the Silver Bullet and we did emphasize the need to keep the pinky in contact with the bottom handle on a legal attempt, but the referee still needs to watch for the gripper opening.

Higher in this thread, there was a question about about IronMind's Close the Gap straps—we dropped them because we felt the CoC Silver Bullet worked better and one of the reasons why is just what we're talking about here: intentionally or not, it was much easier to get a finger boost on them than on the CoC Silver Bullet.

On the sponsor thing, that might be part of it, along with peer pressure, but I think performance is a big factor, too: you might be the top dog in one set of grip contests that feature certain events and draw certain competitors, but in these longstanding, widely contested events, a top dog from one part of the grip world might only be at more like 70 or 80 or 90% of the top guns. At Odd's last contest, look at what Mike Burke did on the Apollon's Axle, the CoC Silver Bullet and these are things any gripster can try for himself to see how he compares. Same on the Rolling Thunder, not to mention the CoC No. 3.5. Here was a guy whose grip was so strong that lifting the Inch was becoming a matter of back fatigue, not grip strength.

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Back on the subject of "visual" appeal, I was thinking of different instances where the implement design has lots to do with what it looks like on stage (or in the case of WSM, television):

1. The Arnold Strongman has those huge Hummer Tires in its deadlift.

2. Mighty Mitts has that Monster Bell in its thickbar deadlift.

3. World's Strongest Man has had all kinds of oversized contraptions that look like something out of a Popeye cartoon.

4. Fit Expos have a disk, what, almost 2 feet in diameter, hanging down for the Silver Bullet hold.

What does this mean? Only that in these venues, visual appeal helps, and it is interesting to watch the evolution of them.

In the LA Fit Expo, Haugen's Viking Fishing Pole was an awfully creative way of making a "wrist roller" an event with visual appeal.

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Question, I suppose, for Mikael...

Somewhere in a recent thread you made a comment about "medleys". Are these strictly an "American" thing? Have there been any European or Australian contests that have included medleys?

Edited by Hubgeezer
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I know at least one of the German Contest had a big Medley. I think we started doing them more after that.

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The Medley at Mighty Mitts this year was excellent. The only thing I would have change was the saxon bar needed to be heavier and globe lift lighter.

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Trying to get the Gripmas Medley "just right" is the high point of my preparation.

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