Public & Private

[Mike Sharkey]

I just had a really nice chat with Jedd. He's a great guy with huge contributions to the sport and to many of our personal progresses.

It seems that there is disagreement on a salient issue of process though, so I am posting this thread for public comment.

It is my perspective and wish that major rule changes and large matters of the sport or changes to the historical records be openly discussed here on the Gripboard and allow for public comment and viewpoints to be expressed, CIVILLY, before major decisions are made. I am not necessarily saying everything should be a democratic decision (though that too can be discussed). At the very least the grip community should be aware that such discussions about rules and techniques are happening.

If the community does not agree with me, I will happily fall silent.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Mike Sharkey

[MANNA]

I agree with you, things should definitely be discussed more openly.

In this case it doesnt seem like much actually changed though with the hub rules.

[MANNA]

Besides the fact that no part of the thumb pad/thumb webbing/palm can come in contact with the hub (im guessing even during setup before lift off). Which doesnt affect anyone using claw or a slightly bent thumb

[gripmaniac]

This is obviously a fairly delicate matter that requires some careful treading. I think some discussion prior to changes (whether pre-determined or otherwise) being made is a good idea – but you can bet that not everyone is likely to agree or be happy with them.

At the end the day the bull needs to be taken by the horns when it comes to the basic rules, and transparency of some past records and accomplished feats. It’s not about accusing ANYONE of ever “cheating” - it’s about making sure that going forward that the accomplishment of a feat or the setting of a record is beyond any doubt or reproach. That way gripsport can ensure a high level of credibility. It would be a shame to see Jedd or anyone else working towards this positive outcome wind up being gored for making an effort to undertake such a thankless but needed task.

For my part I can endure just about any “what” if a well thought out and robust “why” is also provided at the time.

Dave

[Eric Roussin]

When we ran the King Kong contest for the first time last year, the rules for the lifts were posted on the GripBoard for discussion prior to making them official. Some of David Horne’s shallow hub rules were combined with Ironmind’s hub rules, as it was felt the shallow hub rules were clearer. Everyone was fine with the rules then (or at least no one voiced their opposition to them at the time) and a successful King Kong contest was held. As we did not hear complaints, this year we planned on using the same rules. However, in recent weeks several King Kong promoters inquired about the rules, requesting a video demonstration of what lifts are allowed and not allowed, as the rules were not considered completely clear. All King Kong promoters were invited to take part in the rule clarification/modification discussion. My original inclination was to simplify the rules, but I now believe that the slight rule clarifications/adjustments was a better way to go.

In my opinion, the Ironmind rules leave more to interpretation than the new King Kong rules do.

[climber511]

I joined the board 11 years ago. Started putting on contests of sorts the next year. Individual promoters each had their own rules and events. We had no You Tube – no records lists – no rules sets of any kind – and “certs” or “feats’ were all over the place in what was considered as “good”. As time went on people on the board all had their say – and opinions were as varied as the number of people involved. It was impossible to even figure out what people believed as thoughts came and went in all the various threads about all the various subjects. It was Chaos more or less. More time went on and someone came up with the idea that a small group of elected people should come up with a set of rules. So the “Group” came to be – and we emailed – set up a private discussion board to talk on – and we still spent months “discussing” things before coming up with what we have. People who had never even been to a competition argued about how things should be run – people who put on contests argued, everyone argued their own point of view – sometimes professionally and sometimes tempers flared. Many argued for what gave them personally the best results on things. But even after the “rules” were done – they weren’t done of course – changes have had to be made and will continue to be made – probably forever. As events are held – over time issues of many kinds show up – people find ways to take advantage, sometimes inadvertently and sometimes on purpose. Variability of different pieces of equipment comes to light as time unfolds. And each loophole has to be addressed individually as they appear – which takes discussion back and forth among a small group of people who have busy lives of their own to work around – which means it takes time. It always seems like these things rear their head in the days right before a contest, as someone has figured out a new way of doing things that is different than in the past and may or may not be in the spirit of the original lift.

There is a reason we do not live in a true democracy in this country. If we have to wade through the opinion of everyone, nothing ever gets done (look at our government today for example). We have been there and done that, and it didn’t work. Some of you have been on the board long enough to remember all this and some have not. I’m old enough to have gone through the rule development of Olympic Lifting as well as the breakup of the sport of Powerlifting into the various federations they have today. PL broke up for exactly the same reasons being discussed here today – everyone thought something different to the point things could no longer be resolved. Will Grip Sport go the same way? We are a very young sport with no real organization. We have no true governing body, no members, no dues, no legal protection of officers because we have no officers, no insurance, no official equipment standards – and many problems to solve and absolutely no money to even address them. What exists is a group with no actual standing except what was given by a “forum” – and a forum is not the basis of a “sport” – not today or in the future. Promoters do a good job of trying to work within the rules as well as all the various arguments put forth by all the individuals with all their differing ideas of how things should be done.

I’ll leave you with one thought – the surest way to insure that nothing gets done is to turn it loose on a “forum”.

[Mike Sharkey]

Chris thank you for your thoughtful post. You bring up several important points as it relates to our society today. By your logic though (which I don't disagree with) the best model for government of any country or organization is that of Plato's: The Benevolent Dictatorship. He actually based this on the model of the Saint Kings of ancient China. Those were the high times of civilization.

There is evidence of this in nature too. After all, packs of wolves are led by one Alpha, as are many other groups of animals. Even in traditional human civilizations, the family is ultimately governed by one person. We need only to look to the US Congress to see how that model of separation of powers has led to absolute standstill. This is due however to people's selfish manipulation for personal gain and gain of special interest groups rather than any inherent flaw in the system.

Any system of government can work, provided the hearts of the people are united. That is clearly not the case here.

We are entering a new age, and I have faith in people's innate ability to govern themselves and their personal conduct with virtue. If we do not autoregulate based on our own internal morality, then no set of laws will force us to be good. The threat of punishment is barely even effective on animals. Though the current state of affairs belies my belief, I actually think if we taught children properly, with a basis in truly discovering this natural ability within, we would experience a very different result upon them reaching adulthood.

Similarly, I believe in a community's ability to autoregulate itself. As you say there is very little in the way of actual formal organization. This makes open discussion even more important. Personally, I am only interested in being part of a community where my voice is heard, though I believe those voices (including my own) should of course be evaluated by their own wisdom and contribution.

[David Mitti]

I believe all changes should be open for debate before a final ruling is made.

A sudden change to a certain lift without going into open talks with all grip sport practitioners is going to fire up some people for certain.

I was going to say something in the realm of what Chris said already took place some time ago, elect a group of veteran gripsters and those will be the ultimate deciders. <After of course it was brought up to all and discussed beforehand....

[Juha Harju]

The avoiding public opinion by "small governing body" has indeed pissed a handful of top grip guys off in the last couple of years ive been here..

Example: Juha, in the recent hub debate (based off the info i gather here on the GB)

Also, just earlier this year, Aaron was hosting the cactus grip and then last minute there was the rule change that no parallel gripper closes were to be accepted. If i recall, he was pretty pissed about it. And correct me if im wrong, but i believe that led him to not hosting the comp?.. (I think)

My point in mentioning- it is obvious that "small governing body" decisions without the consult of others (the grip community) piss off even the best of grip guys. Not just the new guy.

Ill also close in saying this, stop pissing "new guys"off with insulting their opinion of what theyd like to see in gripsport. Like it or not, "new guys" will always be the future in ANY orginization. So if you truly want to see this grow, then mutual respect for opinion needs to be shown.

Tommy,

I can´t remember this case. What do you mean?

[Juha Harju]

I mean Aaron´s case. Do you mean that I was involved it? (sorry my english )

Here is discussion about hub at King Kong:

https://www.facebook.com/juha.harju.56?fref=nf

Juha Harju: Gentlemen, we ( KING KONG promoters around the world) have discussed lot of about Ironmind Hub lift technique at KING KONG 2014 contest. Because we didn´t end up to follow IM´s rules, I leave KING KONG title open. I only referee & promoter Finland´s leg. Thanks to all who participated to promoters discussion.

• Lucas Raymond I heard they are allowing the vbar type grip....lame!

  17 t · Tykkää · 2
• Juha Harju Yep, so shame.

  16 t · Tykkää · 1
• Kody Delone Burns This sucks.

  16 t · Tykkää · 2
• Juha Harju Yes. All doesn´t like IronMind or their rules but if one KING KONG event is Ironmind hub lift then we should follow their rules. Simple.

  16 t · Tykkää · 4
• Kody Delone Burns 100% Agree !!! Very simple

  15 t · En tykkääkään · 1
• Kody Delone Burns Hope they change it back for your sake Juha. Rules are rules. Should kept tight at all times.

  15 t · En tykkääkään · 1
• Brandon Gerber Might as well make it v bar instead of hub...

  15 t · En tykkääkään · 1
• Yori Skutt I don't understand what's going on... can somebody dumb down the new developments for me?

  15 t · Tykkää
• Juha Harju Jedd Johnson would you participate discussion? Thanks. My english is so limited.

  14 t · Tykkää · 1
• Jedd Johnson Sure thing Juha Harju
  
  This is the info that was put out.
  
  "I ( Eric R.) just got off the phone with Andrew. We both agree that the rules as written should be fine. We will accept all techniques that work without intentional tilt. So this would mean that v-bar style is acceptable (though I have a hard seeing how this style could be used without tilt). Perhaps if unsure if tilt is being intentionally applied, a plate can he kept on hand for a lifter to demonstrate that it can be done with an actual plate. Once again, if someone is concerned with Ironmind recognition, they should follow Ironmind's rules to a tee, but for this contest, variations will be accepted. In sticking with these guidelines, I understand it is quite possible we will see a 100+ lb lift in this contest, which to me is badass, no matter which technique is used."
  
  If anyone has any specific questions, please let me know, as I lost track of this particular thread.
  
  I also want to add that it wasn't me who made the rule change. I know how sometimes I get heat from competitors over decisions that are made.

  14 t · Tykkää
• Juha Harju Thanks bro.

  14 t · Tykkää
• Jedd Johnson Happy to help out.

  14 t · En tykkääkään · 1
• 
  

  Yori Skutt For clarification, this means that a legit ironmind record can be set if a competitor chooses to adhere to their rules, but for NAGS no distinctions will be made in technique differences, and the only factor would be the total weight lifted?

  14 t · Tykkää
• 
  

  Jedd Johnson I just checked the gripsport.org site. We do not have a rules set posted on the website for the IM Hub, Yori Skutt

  14 t · Tykkää
• 
  

  Jedd Johnson I also do not find anything in IGC rule book.

  14 t · Tykkää
• Yori Skutt The IM rules specifically disallow what they call "door knob" style. And as far as I've gathered, NAGS had tried hard to stay in line with IM rules, to have more people contributing to IM world records.

  14 t · Tykkää
• Jedd Johnson I agree. I was hoping we had something specific I could point to. Since we do not, I started a discussion on the NAGS forum that we have.
  
  I believe we just go by IronMind's rules, but wanted to make sure with the rest of the group. Yori Skutt

  14 t · Tykkää · 1
• Yori Skutt Thanks for the clarification, Jedder. My feelings on this matter are probably shared by some promoters. The rule change would mean the separation between IM and NAGS. And unless somebody is attempting the ironmind WR, they've gotta doorknob to stay competitive. Also, it nullifies all previous records. Ultimately, it's Eric's comp. We'll see what he decides.

  14 t · Tykkää
• Jedd Johnson My gut instinct at this time is that all grips are allowed, we'd essentially have to keep track the grip each lifter used on every turn and then enter the proper data accordingly, which would be a gigantic pain in the ass.
  
  I just got off the phone with Andrew Pantke a half hour ago. Nothing is written in stone. Let's see what pans out when dudes are at home and can focus, instead of being at work and stuff.

  14 t · Tykkää
• Brandon Gerber We need to pick one style of lifting it. That way we dont have to enter differnt data like you said Jedd Johnson. If there are people going for IM records we need to either adhere to those rules or say screw IM and make your own rules that everyone follows. But like Yori Skutt said, if v bar style is allowed then you sure as shit better do it that way or you wont do well overall. We just need one way to do it that way we all know what were doing

  13 t · En tykkääkään · 1
• Jedd Johnson Yes, if v-bar/doorknob is allowed, that will add 20 lbs to some peoples' scores and really be like comparing apples to oranges.

  13 t · En tykkääkään · 2
• Christopher Andrade I refuse to use that v bar grip screw my score

  12 t · En tykkääkään · 7
• Jedd Johnson Greatest statement ever, Christopher Andrade!!!!!!!!

  12 t · En tykkääkään · 4
• Yori Skutt Since tilting is the only thing disallowed, if the doorknob passes, I will be lifting the hub by hooking my fingers inside the hub... I may get 130lbs.

  11 t · En tykkääkään · 4
• Aaron Corcorran vbar style = doorknob style lift in the IM vernacular. Same thing. This is not the same as the thumb cocked style some use.

  10 t · Tykkää · 1
• Eric Roussin My main objective is that the rules are simple so that it is easy for competitors and judges to know which techniques are acceptable and which ones are not. Right now, even Ironmind’s rules aren’t totally clear. Ironmind's rules specify that all fingertips touch the plate at the base of the hub at the beginning of the lift. It does not state anything against a bent thumb, other than stating "not holding the hub as though grabbing a doorknob". It leaves a lot to interpretation, and I've seen several hybrid-type lifts. It is clear that most people don’t think v-bar style is within the spirit of the lift. But who determined what the spirit of the lift is in the first place? It’s about lifting a plate off the floor by the hub. Why is v-bar style looked down upon? But I digress… I also don’t want to hub in this manner, if not only because I’ve never done it this way. IF v-bar style is not to be allowed, what parameters can we come up with to gauge which lifts are acceptable and which ones are not? Because there are definitely some techniques being used that are “v-bar-ish”. Nothing is set in stone, but let’s figure this thing out together. I don’t think Ironmind’s rules are clear enough.

  10 t · Tykkää · 1
• Eric Roussin Oh, and Yori, we'll be sure to add a precision that you can't do the lift by putting your hand inside the hub.

  10 t · En tykkääkään · 3
• Yori Skutt Eric Roussin, that was my hope. Controversy lies in the inclarity of language. If NAGS ruled are established tonight, it'll be a good touch to disallow my technically legal joker card: lifting with my fingers pushing on the underside of the base.
  I know that you have the best intentions as we attempt to move the sport forward. I will be competing whether or not the hub rules change.

  10 t · Tykkää · 1
• Jedd Johnson I think Eric Roussin and Andrew Pantke should hop on the grip board and address concerns on the thread there about this rule stuff when possible. People are getting heated and it looks inaccurate accusations are being thrown around about the origin of this rule change...

  9 t · En tykkääkään · 4
• Bill Piche I agree Jedd Johnson. Please Eric and Andrew go over there and address this if you would. Thanks.

  9 t · Muokattu · Tykkää · 2

Edited September 24, 2014 by Juha Harju

[Jedd Johnson]

I will speak on the Aaron gripper deal.

That was a mistake and I owned up to it and apologized. I could see how that would feel like the rug was pulled out from under him.

But I wasn't alone on that deal. I get blamed like I sit here and just make decisions on a whim, but that isn't the case.

[Bill Piche]

Well, where exactly is this going and what are we hoping for as an expected outcome of this thread? Re-read Chris's post and a simple one line answer would be good because after nearly 14 years I just see another ground hog's day. He's right on the money with respect to the current state and history.

I don't know...I would hope the mere fact people are willing to take the significant time to discuss the rules and try to improve going forward AND put on contests and promote grip is...well...a very positive thing. There were NO contests years ago except for maybe David's. I competed in powerlifting for about 10 years starting back in 1982 and Chris is right about that too. I guess the next step if history repeats itself like powerlifting is the people who are thinking there is some conspiracy going on or it is "not being done right" can start promoting their own contests with their own set of unique rules.

[barbe705]

something that also isn't being brought up here is that we're discussing several different things that are closely related. The gripboard certs, North American Grip Sport, and the IGC are all separate things.

I've been involved with all three on some level and I can make the following generalizations:

all decisions are discussed half to death before they are announced.

if it's an issue that another person is more of an expert on, they are consulted.

the feelings of the general public are considered even if we all disagree with them.

It is always discussed about how the rules changes will affect things going forward.

A lot of people seem to be bringing up the idea that we should do things totally based on mob opinion. as chris said, we got away from that because it was unworkable. we have instituted forum voting for the GB records and stats list and while it has turned judging over to the forum it is actually more work than when we simply judged and gave feedback ourselves.

I also feel like people are bringing things up that they didn't follow as they evolved. for instance, the gripper set decision and aaron's comp. a decision was made to eliminate parallel set grippers, Aaron explained why he felt they should stay, it was discussed and they stayed in. In my mind that's the very best we could hope for. The idea that there would be some system where nothing would ever slip through the cracks and nothing will anger any member, it doesn't exist.

from what i can see there was a private conversation between promoters carried on in a public place. people jumped into the middle of it before things were resolved and now we have locked threads. again, the people who were looking at the rules had something brought to their attention, they went back and forth (taking the general populations opinion into consideration) and settled on what they thought was best.

I would ask people to stop focusing on the slip ups here and there and instead look at all the good that has been pulled off in the last couple years. and, consider that all these people are compensated in no way. i would also ask that people slow down before they start insulting and arguing. the group behind the scenes all have family, jobs, and time zones to deal with. sometimes if something does slip through the cracks it takes a minute to get everyone online and address it.

[climber511]

We are entering a new age, and I have faith in people's innate ability to govern themselves and their personal conduct with virtue. If we do not autoregulate based on our own internal morality, then no set of laws will force us to be good. The threat of punishment is barely even effective on animals. Though the current state of affairs belies my belief, I actually think if we taught children properly, with a basis in truly discovering this natural ability within, we would experience a very different result upon them reaching adulthood.

Similarly, I believe in a community's ability to autoregulate itself. As you say there is very little in the way of actual formal organization. This makes open discussion even more important. Personally, I am only interested in being part of a community where my voice is heard, though I believe those voices (including my own) should of course be evaluated by their own wisdom and contribution.

Above by Mike Sharkey (the quote thing kept screwing up on me sorry)

Anyway to address this – and this is as much about governing and people in general as the GB issue. Few here probably know that I am also a politician of sorts. I have served on the Village Council of our small town for something like 23 years – so I have a perspective on human nature and behavior from a point of personal experience. If I go out to eat I have to go out of town or I will be interrupted by endless people sharing their opinions on how things should be done – my phone rings daily with people telling me how to do things – so what is going on here on the GB is in no way new to me. More often than not people do not know the complete story and the governing body is still in the middle of making any decision. Often if the public had waited a few days our discussion would have been complete and a decision reached. Over the years I have discovered that no matter what decision is reached, almost exactly half of the people will like it and half will think it’s crazy. As much as I would like to believe that Mike’s idea of a community able to auto regulate itself is true – this has not in any way been my experience in real life. People want to have their say and that is fine – and in government we have public meetings where things should be done, not in a restaurant when I’m trying to eat. The “Group” reads every post on the forum believe me – we do listen – sometimes we agree and sometimes not but we try hard to be aware of the different points of view on everything concerning the sport of Grip – and we talk often about things – and try hard not to “over regulate”. I missed out on the whole FB thing yesterday and this is also a problem. Presenting items on social media outside of the one here is like interrupting me when I’m out to eat – the group as a whole is left out in the dark. The people whom you voted in and (sort of) trust were playing catch up in the middle of flaring tempers without actually knowing what all had been said – an impossible situation.

[Mike Sharkey]

Chris I really love your story. I'm not surprised your community trusts you as a leader.

Really this is the eternal question of governance. The governed complain of a lack of voice and influence and those in office complain of the burden of responsibility. I don't have the easy solution to that but I am actually a fan of the ancient Chinese model. The trick is actually finding a saint to take the job.

As I said originally, I'm not opposed to governance by committee, but there seems to be a breakdown in communication. Those on the committee seem to think there's enough or even too much discussion, but clearly that's not the general consensus. I doubt most people can name all the members of the NAGS. Clearly the process needs addressing.

From my point of view, we are missing those community meetings you mentioned. In the end though, that we remain united is more important than the details!

[climber511]

Chris I really love your story. I'm not surprised your community trusts you as a leader.

Really this is the eternal question of governance. The governed complain of a lack of voice and influence and those in office complain of the burden of responsibility. I don't have the easy solution to that but I am actually a fan of the ancient Chinese model. The trick is actually finding a saint to take the job.

As I said originally, I'm not opposed to governance by committee, but there seems to be a breakdown in communication. Those on the committee seem to think there's enough or even too much discussion, but clearly that's not the general consensus. I doubt most people can name all the members of the NAGS. Clearly the process needs addressing.

From my point of view, we are missing those community meetings you mentioned. In the end though, that we remain united is more important than the details!

Mike thanks for your understanding. Part of this is the fact that those who have been here for a long time have been through all the discussions you speak of - both those that have occurred out in the open on the board and the ones we have had among ourselves as a group - and more than once. But every so often people who have not been here long enough to have been through those times with us feel they have not been heard - and that is no doubt true. I guess every so often we need to go back over the history of the things that have happened, and the resulting steps that were taken to address those issues. It's not that these things have not been discussed several times in the past - it's that "new" people may be completely unaware of what transpired and when. I think we need a way to communicate more directly to the group concerns that arise - instead of taking it to the open forum (or Facebook) and eliminate the s...storm that usually ensues. there was a problem with the hub lift - it appears to have been worked out at this point - I'm just not sure the way it all went down is the best way to operate is all.

[The Mac]

In the UK we have a system where if enough people sign a petition on a given subject that subject must, by law, be debated by Parliament (this system is not of course unique to the UK). Perhaps something similar could happen here, backed by a polling vote - in that way at least disgruntled members will feel like they are being listened to. But if it's just a handful of members and no one else cares enough to vote - meh, move on.

[The Mac]

Chris,

There's a thread in the Grip Contest Forum - "Developments in Grip Sport Collective" or somesuch - last update was in 2012. Would be easy to turn that into a "this is what we have talked about recently" - would take minutes to update every so often, and provide a record for newcomers.

[bencrush]

Some very interesting reading here. I am not a promoter anymore, and have never been part of the IGC/NAGS/grip certs - but I respect all the guys that are. I trust them enough to know that when they make a decision, it hasn't been made lightly or quickly. Because all of them doubtless know that only bad things happen fast.

When the rule came out that the Top 50 lists would only have calibrated weights ("rated weights?"), that hurt some feelings. My feelings were not on that list. But I was disappointed because it meant my best performances were not going to be on the list. And since I rarely compete anymore, I would not have the opportunity to at least see some of the new blood knock my numbers down the list over time. My 300lb+ 2" vbar (2011 grip contest) comes immediately to mind. We all had a good time at that contest and - calibrated weights or not - we were all pleased with at least some of our performances there that day.

Sometimes promoters (especially those that are also competing) have to remember the other side of the coin. The competitors that come to their contests. It has occurred to me recently that there may be guys who harbor a slight resentment toward me and the other organizers of possibly two contests that they were not able to get on a record list because we didn't take the time and effort to calibrate all our weights. My apologies to those guys. Because they'll never get a chance to retroactively get their name on any Top 50 list.

This topic is especially timely for me, because last week I decided to sell all the weights I've accumulated over the years. Bumper plates, Olympic plates, standard plates. All of it. Which has been a monumental pain in the butt, to be honest. Getting them all together and transporting them once to a gym in town where the assistant manager let me weigh everything on his certified scale was a lot of work. I only weighed them because I've been curious over the years how close my digital scale is to a certified scale. Turns out it was off a bit more than I suspected. As in all the weights were a bit heavier than I had written on them in permanent marker. I think that is easily explainable, and due partly to the fact that my Tanita scale will only measure "even" increments in a pound. So it goes 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8, 1.0, etc. So if something weighs 1.7lbs, my scale will show 1.6lbs. The measurements (weights) were off more the higher the weight of the plate rose. Two of my "45lb plates" were actually over 2lbs heavier than I had them listed at from when I weighed everything on my digital scale. That discrepancy added up pretty quickly since I had a good amount of weight on the bar. Even the bar was a bit heavier than I had written down. Not a lot (it was .8lb heavier), but it all added up to enough that it might've been the difference between Josh being close to lifting it - and getting on the Top 50 list with a 300lb+ 2" vbar lift in a contest.

Josh Dale might be the only one who is actually interested in the real weight of the "301 pounds" that I lifted at that contest - the 2011 KC Qualifier II. Because he and I were going for the same weight. He was very, very close to lifting it on three attempts. But here's the kicker. IF I had actually taken the time to calibrate my plates (which we used at the contest) and the 2" vbar (FBBC), he very likely would've succeeded with a 300lb pull and would still today be on that FBBC 2" vbar list. And his name probably wouldn't be moved off the top 10 list for a long time - even if he never did a 2" vbar pull at another contest. I feel responsible for that error. And he frankly probably hasn't given it a second thought since the day of the contest. Hell, I would've enjoyed being on the 2" Vbar top 10 list too. So that makes it even more stupid that I didn't just bite the bullet and calibrate my weights. I always thought that if I co-promoted more contests we'd eventually get all of our plates calibrated (for you anal types, "weighed") and marked for future contest use. It became apparent to me that I wasn't going to be doing many more contests, so I declined to do something that would've helped out my friends and fellow competitors.

For Josh - and anyone else interested - the total calibrated weight was 310.25lbs. 9lbs heavier than what we were shooting for.

This lack of calibrated weights also shorted a few guys on 2HP and Double Overhand Axle Deadlift.

And don't think for a minute that I want my calibrated-after-the-fact weights to be put on the list. That's not where I'm going with this post. I'm saying this now, because there will be someone who wants to argue that we shouldn't add calibrated weights that were weighed after the contest. And I would heartily agree.

[Mike Sharkey]

Totally agree Chris. I believe in respecting tradition yet understanding the world is dynamic.

Mac at least now we are talking solutions to avoid miscommunications!

[climber511]

Chris,

There's a thread in the Grip Contest Forum - "Developments in Grip Sport Collective" or somesuch - last update was in 2012. Would be easy to turn that into a "this is what we have talked about recently" - would take minutes to update every so often, and provide a record for newcomers.

Mac I couldn't find that topic - can you give me a link?

[climber511]

Chris,

There's a thread in the Grip Contest Forum - "Developments in Grip Sport Collective" or somesuch - last update was in 2012. Would be easy to turn that into a "this is what we have talked about recently" - would take minutes to update every so often, and provide a record for newcomers.

Mac I couldn't find that topic - can you give me a link?

Never mind - I found it - blind as a bat am I

[climber511]

This thread links to another thread with a title that people will never find if looking for this subject. I would ask a moderator to maybe Pin a thread for use by the Group to talk about issues brought forward by members with a title explaining things so people can find it.

[Bill Piche]

Someone can volunteer, create a new thread, promise to update it as needed, and I will then pin it.

[Mike Sharkey]

Also, everyone makes some decent points here. Which further backs up the fact that open discussion works. Think about that for a second... Because i have yet to see a temper flare here.

Tommy this is my point exactly. I believe we can be part of a community that co-operates and helps each other improve. Like EJ said this is supposed to be fun.

Someone can volunteer, create a new thread, promise to update it as needed, and I will then pin it.

Bill I would volunteer for this type of clerical job sometime in the future. I'm in the middle of a big move at the moment. Hopefully someone will take it upon themselves to fill in.