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Is The Gold Nail Too Big?


Devin Annis

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I saw Randall Strossen at the Pasadena FitExpo in 2006 (I think it was 2006), and I asked him if Iron Mind would ever come up with something bigger than the Red Nail. He said the Red Nail was already big enough and he would not put out anything bigger due to the injuries it would cause. However, he must have changed his mind because not too many years later Iron Mind put out a real beast.... the Gold Nail. I have a few of them and I don't think I will ever be able to bend one. So my questions are: Is anyone making serious progress on this milestone? Is there a bending equivalent of Joe Kinney out there? And did Iron Mind go overboard with the size of the Gold Nail?

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I has been bent, just not officially.

I'm pretty sure harder nails than the gold nail have been bent too.

Most likely not in IM-Pads though.

But some benders seem to be pretty private about what they do, that might play a role too.

A lot of very strong benders find the gold nail not just very hard but very awkward too, because of it's length.

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I know a few dudes that are bending golds right now. i think an official cert will go down soon

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I think it's possible. But I don't think anyone will be certing on it anytime soon. Not unless there is a serious varience and the steel on the Gold turns becomes weaker than it previously have been. Which could always happen. I've noticed that the Red nail is usually made of relatively weak CRS and the Gold is made of relatively hard CRS. If the Gold would be made out of relatively weak CRS, then I could think of a few guys who could cert on it.

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I doubt Iron Mind would weaken an existing product, but I could see them coming out with an intermediate nail. Perhaps the Silver Nail. Sort of the same thing happened with the gap between the CoC #3 and #4. It took a few years, but eventually the #3.5 came out.

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Devin,

A very good question. I don't think Ironmind will put out a Silver nail simply because Randal is not as passionate about bending as he is grippers.

Now to your question of will it ever be bent. It will take someone truly exceptional. Not only is it very tough steel at 600 plus pounds to bend, but it's also a very awkward length for most benders so 90 percent of benders will not even pursue that because of the length.

Pads. It has been bent but not in ironmind pads and that is some serious steel to bend in such painful pads.

Theoretically, if someone like Slim the Hammerman could have been talked into pursuing the high DO style of bending I think it would be very doable. Several reasons I mention him is that his hand size is huge so the 8 3/8 inches wouldn't be so awkward and his hands could get more leverage. His immense wrist strength combined with somebody who's not bench presser huge would allow him to still be very flexible. To me, if you could go back in time and get him to specialize in it he could do it. Simply put it wouldn't be as hard for him with his "rare" build and strength combination.

Picture this, if you've ever seen a piece of heavy equipment like a crane, they've got these things called outriggers that spread the force out over the ground. Slims hands would in effect do that to the steel same way they do to the sledge handles. Guys like this big Russion dude are fighting so much pain and force with their smaller and fatter hands. Maybe very strong hands but the physics aren't as ideal.

For a more normal build person like EJ, JT, Tommy or the Russian dude to cert on it will be much harder and their hands better be made of concrete.

Now, like David said, if they happen to get a weak batch of steel - and trust me, you can't always control that - it will change everything. FBBC got a batch of bastards once that calibrated at 380 or 385. The certs skyrocketed. Even a 500 pound gold nail in IMPs would be tough though.

I don't believe it will be certed on very soon unless some of the top benders are working in quiet and that's possible. Wouldn't surprise me though if it were never certed on....it's that tough. To me it's easily the equivelent of a CCS #4 cert, if not harder.

Then there's always freaks like Don Larkin, guy was breaking 80ds unbraced in a bath towel back in the day so you never know.

I could see it going either way but in my opinion, they should've went with 11/32 or something for an in between bend. This jump is monumental.

I've always said this, I'll pursue bending the gold as long as I can do it without permenantly altering my hands or causing injury. That may be what plagues the uppermost guys as well.

Had they released some "gold wraps" that were just 1/2 again bigger to accomodate this beast, I'd feel much different.

Edited by Tim T
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Tim T,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I really like the idea of "Gold Wraps." That might be the only way to get a name on the roster.

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in short, no it is not too big. i have stated since i was first introduced to unbraced bending that it is not an unbendable bar. (which used to get many "scoffs" when i said it)

it will, however, require more hand toughness than overall strength to cert it. that is, imo, the only reason it has not yet been done.

i have bent quite a few in double leathers, but not yet in any single wraps. one of them in just over a minute. (like 1:07 i think)

also, i dont know your stats in terms of size.. but it CAN be done by a sub 200lb man. the first gold nail i fully bent i weighed less than 195lbs. ..i think i am the lightest gold nail bender of the bunch. so it wont take a mountain of a man to get it (a cert) done. just tough sob, or a really crazy one that can ignore the pain.. lol

Tommy I think you have the hand toughness to do it

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Tommy,

I don't think it will take a mountain of a man but I large man built just right with very large hands will have an advantage. Not saying that you or anyone else couldn't overcome that and do it first but just like running, typically longer legs will give you an advantage.

I learned this from watching my sons bend. To my youngest, a 6 inch bar has the awkwardness of a 7 to 7.5 inch piece of steel. Someone his size could overcome that and bend a G8 bolt or whatever but he has to overcome more than I would.

Heck if a young Andre the Giant had been interested in bending, he'd need at least an 8 inch bar just to not get lost in his hands. Spread the force of the bar out over a larger area (hands), and the lesser amount of padding shouldn't matter as much.

Good luck with it Tommy and everyone else. Heck I'll work towards it and I'm under 190 but I'm realistic in that a normal sized hand in the DO style will have a ton of leverage and subsequent pain put into it.

Like I said, it's the equivalent of a #4 cert, not a Tetting galaxy close. A #4 is possible but could possible be an unattained goal for along time.


As for the gold wraps, it won't happen. Be nice but won't happen.

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Tommy,

I'm the same way with any hobby. I get my mind really into something for a while then I just lose interest as well. I will say though, bending has kept me more focused than any other hobby I've every done.

I can so relate to that.

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Well, 3 of the Gold benders are right around 200# right? You, JT and Paul. Leverage and size aren't necessarily the same thing.

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The gold nail isn't too big. It doesn't calibrate too high. It isn't impossible. It's very very doable in IM pads.

You just need to be ready for a few things. The bones in your hand WILL move. You will feel them flexing and moving. It's a very odd feeling. You have to be ready for lots of pain with the potential of breaking or fracturing something. Your skin has to be thick, I'm talking bullet proof thick. The Gold nail seriously injured me and one other bender that I know of. Both of us did/are making a serious run at it. Once upon a time I made very good progress with the gold nail.

Well, 3 of the Gold benders are right around 200# right? You, JT and Paul. Leverage and size aren't necessarily the same thing.

When I bent it the first time, I was about 240lbs. Edited by EJ Livesey
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Well, 3 of the Gold benders are right around 200# right? You, JT and Paul. Leverage and size aren't necessarily the same thing.

No way. Paul and JT both were well over 200, (closer to 220 ish) and with longer arms, broader shoulders and bigger hands. That said, yes, leverage absolutely IS the factor im referring to interms of "size".

Cool.

Yeah now that you mention it, I remember JT having enormous palms lol

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I doubt Iron Mind would weaken an existing product, but I could see them coming out with an intermediate nail. Perhaps the Silver Nail. Sort of the same thing happened with the gap between the CoC #3 and #4. It took a few years, but eventually the #3.5 came out.

Tim already kind of touched on this. But I didn't mean that they would intentionally make it weaker. Ironmind can't possibly have that level of control over their steel. If they did, they would have to test all their batches and throw out 90% or so because the steel happen to be either too hard or too easy. With that said though, the Ironmind nails don't seem to vary too crazy, so I'm sure they at least have some level of control of their products. I don't think they just buy a bunch of 5/16, cut them up and paint the ends red. However I think there might be enough variance allowing for one batch of Golds end up being 560 at 8 3/8" and the next batch be 510 at 8 3/8". They're both going to be crazy hard and most aren't going to be able to do crap with any of them. But the difference is that the 560 bar that is way beyond what anybody is capable of bending(at the moment), and the 510 bar is going to be bent by a few of the top guys.

But this is just all speculation from my part. But I'm basing this off of the normal variance that we see in the Red nails. And the fact that larger diameters tend to vary more than their smaller counterparts. So where the Red nail normally vary from 400 to 450 at 7". The Gold might vary more than those 50 lbs. I mean look at the Bastards from FBBC. The 5/16 bastards have varied about 90-100 lbs at the most, between the weakest and hardest batch. But The 3/8" KOAB's have varied almost 200 lbs from weakest to hardest batch!

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The huge difference between Fbbc and IM is the steel uniformity. Fbbc would get what was cheaper at the time wether it was 12L14, 1018, 303, 304, 304L. IM, in my experience has stayed with 1018 for the past couple years. I've bent many golds and many KOABs. The KOABs varied a lot but they were all pretty hard. The golds don't vary as much. I've bent the spirals and the solid golds. The spirals calibrated at 565 and the solids were close to 600?? According to mike K. I know if I could in fact find a gold that was calibrated at 510 I could kill it in IMPs, not under a minute, but I could do it.

Edited by EJ Livesey
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Is the Gold nail too BIG? Simple answer - YES.

Is the Gold nail going to be certed? Simple answer - YES.

The Gold nail is in a league of its own. It's too big for 99% of the population. That doesn't mean it’s impossible. The cert of all bending certs shouldn't have a roster of 100+ people. It should contain the elite few. The chosen ones so to speak. It'll take a special person to make that list. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

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EJ, a 510 bend at 8 3/8 inches in IMPs would still be beyond incredible.

I do believe ironmind is fairly consistant. Reds might be 425 and they might be 450 but in the whole scope of things, that's not bad. Bastards calibrated as low as 385 or 380 and all the way up to those 515 monsters.

If the current gold nails are 1018, then it's very tough 1018.

Alot of other factors come in to play as well. What size the bar was rolled from plays a part. The more severe the cold drawing strains, the tougher the steel should be. Cold rolled steel starts out as special bar quality hot rolled steel and how much it's reduced plays a large role.

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Here's a question, of the guys who've bent golds, who is still actively training besides EJ? Is JT just being quiet or is he doing something else? I doubt Paul is currently doing any bending so who's it down to?

Another variable is if one of these monsters at these strongman competitions who Randal talks to would ever get into bending, then that could change the picture quick. I'm sure Randal has given more than one an Ironmind catalog.

One other quick point is that the excellent irongrip certs could actually take away some of the momentum from the gold nail efforts. I know I go through phases of prefering to work different lengths or pads or whatever and so is this causing some potential benders to focus on 7 inch stuff?

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Tim, I wouldn't really say I've been "actively" training for the gold. I play around sometimes but not seriously training, yet. I'm just trying to get back the strength I lost.

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Wow, so it's really an afterthought for everybody at the moment.

Another thing which could affect this cert over say a gripper cert is the expense. I can tell you right now my pockets cannot afford the training I'd like to do. We are training with consumable items whereas when Joe Kinney was training for grippers, once he made his tools, he could re-use them.

Well, I'm actively pursuing the Gold nail it's just that I get sidetracked so easily. I'd love to bend the thing and I believe I will.

The "road to Gold" is not a smooth road.

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Well, I'm actively pursuing the Gold nail it's just that I get sidetracked so easily. I'd love to bend the thing and I believe I will.

YEAH BUDDY!!!

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Devin,

A very good question. I don't think Ironmind will put out a Silver nail simply because Randal is not as passionate about bending as he is grippers.

Now to your question of will it ever be bent. It will take someone truly exceptional. Not only is it very tough steel at 600 plus pounds to bend, but it's also a very awkward length for most benders so 90 percent of benders will not even pursue that because of the length.

Pads. It has been bent but not in ironmind pads and that is some serious steel to bend in such painful pads.

Theoretically, if someone like Slim the Hammerman could have been talked into pursuing the high DO style of bending I think it would be very doable. Several reasons I mention him is that his hand size is huge so the 8 3/8 inches wouldn't be so awkward and his hands could get more leverage. His immense wrist strength combined with somebody who's not bench presser huge would allow him to still be very flexible. To me, if you could go back in time and get him to specialize in it he could do it. Simply put it wouldn't be as hard for him with his "rare" build and strength combination.

Picture this, if you've ever seen a piece of heavy equipment like a crane, they've got these things called outriggers that spread the force out over the ground. Slims hands would in effect do that to the steel same way they do to the sledge handles. Guys like this big Russion dude are fighting so much pain and force with their smaller and fatter hands. Maybe very strong hands but the physics aren't as ideal.

For a more normal build person like EJ, JT, Tommy or the Russian dude to cert on it will be much harder and their hands better be made of concrete.

Now, like David said, if they happen to get a weak batch of steel - and trust me, you can't always control that - it will change everything. FBBC got a batch of bastards once that calibrated at 380 or 385. The certs skyrocketed. Even a 500 pound gold nail in IMPs would be tough though.

I don't believe it will be certed on very soon unless some of the top benders are working in quiet and that's possible. Wouldn't surprise me though if it were never certed on....it's that tough. To me it's easily the equivelent of a CCS #4 cert, if not harder.

Then there's always freaks like Don Larkin, guy was breaking 80ds unbraced in a bath towel back in the day so you never know.

I could see it going either way but in my opinion, they should've went with 11/32 or something for an in between bend. This jump is monumental.

I've always said this, I'll pursue bending the gold as long as I can do it without permenantly altering my hands or causing injury. That may be what plagues the uppermost guys as well.

Had they released some "gold wraps" that were just 1/2 again bigger to accomodate this beast, I'd feel much different.

GREAT post here Tim!

I have often wondered what would happen if some of these giant pro strongman ever took to bending

and would a Gold nail even be a challenge? I know this is downgrading the difficulty of this bend but with

someone like Brian Shaw taking a serious GO at bending I can't envision this nail even being taken seriously.

These guys are MEGA Strong! Bending is not my specialty so I could be way off here but I have often wondered this

very scenario. I guess the question would come down to can they withstand the pain. Any thoughts?

Edited by Mighty Joe
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You take that 6 foot 9, 440 pound guy from Iceland. It wouldn't be near as awkward for him to bend and I bet I could take a guy like that and have him certified on it in a very short period of time. Plus their hands already have to be very tough for some of those events they do.

Like you say, I'm not downgrading the bend because it's one of my top goals right now but physics are what they are. For EJ, Tommy, Paul and JT to bend it is a much harder feet.

Another thing is that pretty much all of us have full time jobs so we don't train for this professionally so that too gives them the advantage.\

It's not short bending but Bill Kazmaier used to bend some very impressive steel bars at his presentations. He'd even have a steel bar bending challenge for any other strongmen and even when he was way past him prime, I saw him bend a 5/8 inch steel bar with alarming ease. I've seen a photo where he and another big strongman are sort of racing if you will bending 3/4 inch steel bars which appear to be 3 foot long and it looks like Bill is making a fish out of his. Nothing to protect his hands either and it's not his specialty.

Those guys have freaky levels of potential and yes, I think if somebody threw down a bounty for those top strongmen to certify on the gold nail, it would be done fairly quick.

I'd rather see one of us working class guys do it though.

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Joe, I have to say though, yes it would be a challenge and I don't necessarly believe they could go much bigger without some specific training.

Now if one of them decided they needed a different challenge when they retired and they became obsessed with bending then who know's what would be possible.

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