AryanVegetarian Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Hi all, it's good to join the community. My goal is to go from my first COC #1 close to closing the COC #3 in less than 4 months.I'm doing this because grip is useful for my main sport of grappling and it will be interesting to see the direct effects of training. I aim to develop lobster pincers that will render my opponents feeble, helpless and begging for mercy. I designed my own routine based on the little I know of strength training and physiology. I'm a big believer in daily high volume (but never to failure programming) since it has worked so well for me with exercises like pull-ups. Except with gripper training it's much easier, since they can just live on your desk. I'll switch up programming when this ceases to be effective. For now, sets are spread throughout the day and each is kept at least 2 reps from failure. While sets are generally completed as quickly as possible, there's often 30s+ rest between each rep to stay clear of failure, so in terms of notation a set of 5 could take a few minutes. This log will track my right hand training. Left is about 0.5 behind but follows the exact same programming.Training so far: AugustOn my first attempt on 23rd August 2015, I was about 6mm away from closing a #1, so by no means did I have a strong base. 23/08/15 - #1 30 (6 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 24/08/15 - #1 40 (8 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 25/08/15 - #1 50 (10 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 26/08/15 - #1 First close. 1 x 10 singles.27/08/15 - REST 28/08/15 - #1 20 (4 x 5) closes.29/08/15 - #1 30 (6 x 5) closes. 30/08/15 - #1 40 (8 x 5) closes. 31/08/15 - #1 50 (10 x 5) closes. September01/09/15 - #1 60 (12 x 5) closes. 02/09/15 - #1.5 First close (surprisingly easy). 1 x 20 singles.03/09/15 - #1.5 30 (6 x 5) closes. 04/09/15 - #1.5 35 (7 x 5) closes.05/09/15 - #1.5 40 (8 x 5) closes. 06/09/15 - REST07/09/15 - #1.5 45 (9 x 5) closes. 08/09/15 - #1.5 50 (10 x 5) closes09/09/15 - #1.5 55 (11 x 5) closes. 10/09/15 - REST11/09/15 - REST12/09/15 - #1.5 60 (12 x 5) closes.13/09/15 - #1.5 65 (13 x 5) closes.14/09/15 - #1.5 70 (14 x 5) closes. 15/09/15 - REST16/09/15 - REST 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jüri Sankman Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Welcome to the forum! Do you have any other grip workout beside grippers and grappling? Interesting to see where you will be after 4 months! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ Livesey Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Good luck and guys have done it with a set from about parallel. I've never see or heard of anyone doing it from a credit card set or cert conditions. Are you looking for parrallel or credit card set? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Radford Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Good luck with your goal, you sound determined! Make sure you also work the extensors using a rubber band (or ones from Ironmind) this helped me massively What kind of set are you using to close the gripper? Have a look at this to understand different meanings to a set http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=19647#entry244322 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterSweden Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Great seeing new gripsters starting their grip quests. I think that doing pullups hanging from a towel and thickbar would work better for your sport tho. Grippers Do not mimic your sport. Good luck and have fun tho! I'll check in on you from time to time and see how you progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odin Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Your thumb strength also needs to be developed as well, as Peter was alluding to with his exercise suggestions. Plate pinching and block weights would also help. Otherwise, your thumb will fail you and your hand will open up under pressure, no matter how strong your crushing grip gets. Click below for a more balanced routine: http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=12608 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryanVegetarian Posted September 17, 2015 Author Share Posted September 17, 2015 Welcome to the forum! Do you have any other grip workout beside grippers and grappling? Interesting to see where you will be after 4 months! Right now, only grappling and weighted pull-ups but they're both quite low intensity. I'm most interested in functional grip strength for grappling. In gi this divides into 1) isometric holds with a relatively closed fist (e.g. grabbing someones collar or lapel), which grippers train really well in the final 20mm ROM, and gi/nogi 2) grabbing often sweaty/rotating wrists and ankles. To mimic this as well as possible this I'm going to make a static or rotating thick handle (I figure a ~60mm diameter is bigger than the circumference of most wrists) for weighted pick ups or hangs. Hopefully there are other current/ex grapplers or wrestlers here so it would be good to hear other ideas too. Good luck and guys have done it with a set from about parallel. I've never see or heard of anyone doing it from a credit card set or cert conditions. Are you looking for parrallel or credit card set? I know it's not a strict CCS cert close, but my goal is the #3 just outside of parallel. Just because the final 20mm is most relevant grappling i.e. grabbing scrunched up fabric/collar. I closed the #2 for the first time from parallel today and can CCS (despite never training this ROM) the #1.5. So I figure there's good carryover and the difference is about ~0.5 but maybe this deviates at higher rated grippers. Good luck with your goal, you sound determined! Make sure you also work the extensors using a rubber band (or ones from Ironmind) this helped me massively What kind of set are you using to close the gripper? Have a look at this to understand different meanings to a set http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=19647#entry244322 Thanks. I'm curious, are there any good articles/studies/posts on extensor training? How did it help you exactly? I never studied biology/anatomy but this seems interesting. With other muscle groups, the unequal training of antagonists has clear negative consequences. For example, increasing the ratio of upper body pushing to pulling strength pulls the shoulder joint out of alignment, or training your quads alone without abdominal training can lead to APT/lower cross syndrome. In many ways, the body is wise at preventing injuries and acts to limit adaptation in the case of imbalance. With larger muscle groups such as pressing, a lot of strength athletes will tell that you they surpassed agonist plateaus purely by strengthening antagonistic movements. (My theory is not that the musculature assisted the movement or even led to much new tissue growth, but instead that it had a delimiting effect on CNS mechanisms that protect for injury). But with hand strength, extensor training makes a lot less intuitive sense to me. The grip functionality of the hand is to hold static objects or to crush. Beyond anatomical balance, there's no clear functional reason to have power behind the extension of the hand except quickly resetting it to a point at which it can hold/crush again (similar to the way the jaw functions). Of course, extensors still need to strengthen, otherwise our fingers would curl inwards and joints would displace. But woudnt the function of the hand imply that extensors would strengthen automatically as a consequence of agonist strengthening? I have never heard of extensor training in people who work with their hands, so is it just that this mechanism is far too slow to keep up with the unusual demands of gripper training? Would be good to learn more if anyone knows. Also setting just outside of parallel (reason above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryanVegetarian Posted September 17, 2015 Author Share Posted September 17, 2015 Great seeing new gripsters starting their grip quests. I think that doing pullups hanging from a towel and thickbar would work better for your sport tho. Grippers Do not mimic your sport. Good luck and have fun tho! I'll check in on you from time to time and see how you progress. I definitely agree. They mimic grasping fabric (gi) and have general carryover to some degree but I'll definitely add more specialized exercises like towel hangs and some form of DIY thickbar. Good ideas. Your thumb strength also needs to be developed as well, as Peter was alluding to with his exercise suggestions. Plate pinching and block weights would also help. Otherwise, your thumb will fail you and your hand will open up under pressure, no matter how strong your crushing grip gets. Click below for a more balanced routine: http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=12608 Thanks. Would you say static/rotating thickbar work would be enough to develop thumb musculature? It seems more similar to a wrist/ankle than pinching or blocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of Fury Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Welcome to the forum and good luck to you. This will be very interesting to follow! Edited September 17, 2015 by Fist of Fury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshW Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Grippers don't really transfer much for me. When I first started properly I was doing one hand deadlifts with around 120-130kg so my grip was okay but at this point I still couldnt close the #2. For grappling with a Gi, towel pull ups mimic that best For grappling without a Gi, fat bar work such as using a 2" thick barbel helps mimic wrist control for grappling best. I will follow your progress and hope that grippers aid your grappling abilities! Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beef_supreme Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Have you tried closing a 2.5 or a #3 yet so you have a baseline on where you're at directly against your goal ? Good thing about grippers they are a little more forgiving in that department than squats for example Grappling/MMA carryover - I'll second what others are saying here, gripper strength won't hurt but it's probably one of the least "functional" aspects of the grip sport (without getting overly philosophical on what "functional" means). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterSweden Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Grippers don't really transfer much for me. When I first started properly I was doing one hand deadlifts with around 120-130kg so my grip was okay but at this point I still couldnt close the #2. For grappling with a Gi, towel pull ups mimic that best For grappling without a Gi, fat bar work such as using a 2" thick barbel helps mimic wrist control for grappling best. I will follow your progress and hope that grippers aid your grappling abilities! Good luck Dude, One handed deadlifts with 120-130kg? I've done 115 as my best. One of Swedens strongest grip athletes can do 130kg. Do you have a video of you doing 130? Are you talking hook grip? im not. Edited September 17, 2015 by PeterSweden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshW Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Peter, The lift was from just above knee height, sorry I should have mentioned that and I had something wrapped round the bar for better grip. I thought regardless of how I lifted that weight, it was a lot for one hand to hold and I still couldn't close that damn gripper. I should have called it a one hand rack pull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I do circuit training at the gym. And I plugged in grip work, 6 days a week, into it. Crushing one day, Supporting next, Pinch next, repeat. 6 days. I really like how my hands are getting stronger. Good luck on you your routine. It looks intense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anwnate Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I had similar ideas about grippers and progress when I first started. One of the things I had no idea about was how much grippers vary (even I.M.). Ignoring the numbers given by manufacturers, Gripsters have created a different system (R.G.C.) to estimate the strength of grippers. While not perfect, it is a pretty darn good system. Most of the variance now comes from different raters…and even then they are generally within 3lbs of each other on the low/middle end of the spectrum. Cannon Power Works explains the process…and has a chart which details most of the grippers they have rated. http://cannonpowerworks.com/pages/grip-strength-ratings-data I eventually came to understand that I really underestimated what an impact that has on the ability to close a gripper. For example…if you have a high end #1 and a low end #1.5…there is only 4lbs difference. However…if you have a low end #1 and a high end #1.5…there is 15lbs difference. As you go up in grippers strength…these differences only become more pronounced. The difference between a #1 and #2 could be anywhere from 18-48lbs. The difference between a #1 and #3 could be anywhere from 60-82lbs. Closing a 138 #3 is no where near the same thing as closing a 158 #3. In a sport where even 3lbs can mean a close or a miss…that kind of variance is huge. When I first started, I followed a similar program as you are, but in time I found I needed to change things up. In general…as you progress up, you need more rest in between sessions. I'd estimate that by time the average person gets to #3, they need 5-7 days rest in between, 7-8 for the #3.5 and at least ten days for the #4. This is just an opinion of course. However, this is in general and doesn't consider a program decided to overwork the hands for a specific duration. (no overwork can be continued indefinitely though) Basically my progress with I.M Grippers went as follows. Closed the #1(barely) on day one. (again no idea it's rating) Closed the #2 two weeks later. (not rated) Closed the #2.5…6 months after that. (not rated) Closed the #3…8 months after that. (not rated) Got MMO…4 months after that. Closed the #3.5…10 months after that. Got Certified on the #3…38 months after getting my first gripper. In disclosure…after I first closed the #3, I had a reoccurring pinky injury that kept tearing open and delaying progress…so perhaps the average joe would improve beyond the #3 faster than myself. I guess the gist of this post is let you know that if you manage to follow your timeline, that it would be a phenomenal thing…and if don't, that it would be a completely normal and expected thing. And if this happens, I'd encourage you to keep that motivation up…and celebrate every little millimeter you get to closing your goal gripper. Very often, they are hard won victories. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ Livesey Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Grippers don't really transfer much for me. When I first started properly I was doing one hand deadlifts with around 120-130kg so my grip was okay but at this point I still couldnt close the #2. For grappling with a Gi, towel pull ups mimic that best For grappling without a Gi, fat bar work such as using a 2" thick barbel helps mimic wrist control for grappling best. I will follow your progress and hope that grippers aid your grappling abilities! Good luck Dude, One handed deadlifts with 120-130kg?I've done 115 as my best. One of Swedens strongest grip athletes can do 130kg. Do you have a video of you doing 130? Are you talking hook grip? im not. I've don't 275 one handed no hook, from the floor. I'll make a video if you want. It's hard but if you have the balance its not impossible.Ninja edit: just saw it was a rack pull with something to help for extra grip. Edited September 17, 2015 by EJ Livesey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anufrio Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Hi all, it's good to join the community. My goal is to go from my first COC #1 close to closing the COC #3 in less than 4 months. I'm doing this because grip is useful for my main sport of grappling and it will be interesting to see the direct effects of training. I aim to develop lobster pincers that will render my opponents feeble, helpless and begging for mercy. I designed my own routine based on the little I know of strength training and physiology. I'm a big believer in daily high volume (but never to failure programming) since it has worked so well for me with exercises like pull-ups. Except with gripper training it's much easier, since they can just live on your desk. I'll switch up programming when this ceases to be effective. For now, sets are spread throughout the day and each is kept at least 2 reps from failure. While sets are generally completed as quickly as possible, there's often 30s+ rest between each rep to stay clear of failure, so in terms of notation a set of 5 could take a few minutes. This log will track my right hand training. Left is about 0.5 behind but follows the exact same programming. Training so far: August On my first attempt on 23rd August 2015, I was about 6mm away from closing a #1, so by no means did I have a strong base. 23/08/15 - #1 30 (6 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 24/08/15 - #1 40 (8 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 25/08/15 - #1 50 (10 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 26/08/15 - #1 First close. 1 x 10 singles. 27/08/15 - REST 28/08/15 - #1 20 (4 x 5) closes. 29/08/15 - #1 30 (6 x 5) closes. 30/08/15 - #1 40 (8 x 5) closes. 31/08/15 - #1 50 (10 x 5) closes. September 01/09/15 - #1 60 (12 x 5) closes. 02/09/15 - #1.5 First close (surprisingly easy). 1 x 20 singles. 03/09/15 - #1.5 30 (6 x 5) closes. 04/09/15 - #1.5 35 (7 x 5) closes. 05/09/15 - #1.5 40 (8 x 5) closes. 06/09/15 - REST 07/09/15 - #1.5 45 (9 x 5) closes. 08/09/15 - #1.5 50 (10 x 5) closes 09/09/15 - #1.5 55 (11 x 5) closes. 10/09/15 - REST 11/09/15 - REST 12/09/15 - #1.5 60 (12 x 5) closes. 13/09/15 - #1.5 65 (13 x 5) closes. 14/09/15 - #1.5 70 (14 x 5) closes. 15/09/15 - REST 16/09/15 - REST Man, I wish you all the Best, but "less than 4 months" - beyond impossibru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgeat Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Thanks. I'm curious, are there any good articles/studies/posts on extensor training? How did it help you exactly? I never studied biology/anatomy but this seems interesting. With other muscle groups, the unequal training of antagonists has clear negative consequences. For example, increasing the ratio of upper body pushing to pulling strength pulls the shoulder joint out of alignment, or training your quads alone without abdominal training can lead to APT/lower cross syndrome. In many ways, the body is wise at preventing injuries and acts to limit adaptation in the case of imbalance. With larger muscle groups such as pressing, a lot of strength athletes will tell that you they surpassed agonist plateaus purely by strengthening antagonistic movements. (My theory is not that the musculature assisted the movement or even led to much new tissue growth, but instead that it had a delimiting effect on CNS mechanisms that protect for injury). But with hand strength, extensor training makes a lot less intuitive sense to me. The grip functionality of the hand is to hold static objects or to crush. Beyond anatomical balance, there's no clear functional reason to have power behind the extension of the hand except quickly resetting it to a point at which it can hold/crush again (similar to the way the jaw functions). Of course, extensors still need to strengthen, otherwise our fingers would curl inwards and joints would displace. But woudnt the function of the hand imply that extensors would strengthen automatically as a consequence of agonist strengthening? I have never heard of extensor training in people who work with their hands, so is it just that this mechanism is far too slow to keep up with the unusual demands of gripper training? Would be good to learn more if anyone knows. Also setting just outside of parallel (reason above). Here is a non-conventional answer to that question: In #4 of this interview with Bret Contreras: http://bretcontreras.com/an-interview-with-grip-champion-adam-glass/ Adam T Glass says training thin pinch training and emphazing the eccentric phase of a gripper close (take a gripper you can shut without cheating, and slowly open it) as better ways to train your extensors. Edited September 17, 2015 by wulfgeat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Cabrera Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Ive tried this^^^. Personally it aggravated my tendons more. I do aquick circuit of hand yoga extensions, sledge walks and sledge rotations twice a week and my elbows have been pretty happy. Back to back for a sickening pump and my tendons have really balanced out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Raftopoulos Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) I think that finger and wrist extensors work a lot with thick bar training and also in my experience normal gripper closes. if you make a fist with one hand and wrap your other hand around the belly of your forearm you 'll see that the extensors are also engaged. They are engaged differently depending on wrist position. Nevertheless, in theory it is healthy to work all possible range of motions of the wrist and fingers. Edited September 18, 2015 by Evan Raftopoulos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgeat Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) Ive tried this^^^. Personally it aggravated my tendons more. I do aquick circuit of hand yoga extensions, sledge walks and sledge rotations twice a week and my elbows have been pretty happy. Back to back for a sickening pump and my tendons have really balanced out. I assume you are talking about the slow eccentric gripper closes? Because I just started that, and could totally see how that could get out of hand quickly (pun intended ). I don't think that applies to the pinch though. . . I think that finger and wrist extensors work a lot with thick bar training and also in my experience normal gripper closes. if you make a fist with one hand and wrap your other hand around the belly of your forearm you 'll see that the extensors are also engaged. They are engaged differently depending on wrist position. Nevertheless, in theory it is healthy to work all possible range of motions of the wrist and fingers. I completely agree with you. And to re-iterate, when it comes bar diameter, pinch block width, and pretty much everything else, your lower arms tend to be healthier when you work with a variety of diameters and thicknesses. Edited September 18, 2015 by wulfgeat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ Livesey Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Grippers don't really transfer much for me. When I first started properly I was doing one hand deadlifts with around 120-130kg so my grip was okay but at this point I still couldnt close the #2. For grappling with a Gi, towel pull ups mimic that best For grappling without a Gi, fat bar work such as using a 2" thick barbel helps mimic wrist control for grappling best. I will follow your progress and hope that grippers aid your grappling abilities! Good luck Dude, One handed deadlifts with 120-130kg?I've done 115 as my best. One of Swedens strongest grip athletes can do 130kg. Do you have a video of you doing 130? Are you talking hook grip? im not. I have video doing 142k on a 1 hand deadlift. No hook, no straps Well la-dee-da aren't you something else. I'm busting balls. That's a huge pull but not surprised, turning wrenches has its advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ Livesey Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Lol! For what its worth, i was also wearing blue jeans when i did it. If you had a dip in, that's where your power came from, not the blue jeans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geralt Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Lol! For what its worth, i was also wearing blue jeans when i did it. Ah, so not RAW. I can close a #4 TNS when wearing jeans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryanVegetarian Posted September 20, 2015 Author Share Posted September 20, 2015 Training so far: AugustOn my first attempt on 23rd August 2015, I was about 6mm away from closing a #1, so by no means did I have a strong base. 23/08/15 - #1 30 (6 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 24/08/15 - #1 40 (8 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 25/08/15 - #1 50 (10 x 5) closes on a 8mm object. 26/08/15 - #1 First close. 1 x 10 singles.27/08/15 - REST 28/08/15 - #1 20 (4 x 5) closes.29/08/15 - #1 30 (6 x 5) closes. 30/08/15 - #1 40 (8 x 5) closes. 31/08/15 - #1 50 (10 x 5) closes. September01/09/15 - #1 60 (12 x 5) closes. 02/09/15 - #1.5 First close (surprisingly easy). 1 x 20 singles.03/09/15 - #1.5 30 (6 x 5) closes. 04/09/15 - #1.5 35 (7 x 5) closes.05/09/15 - #1.5 40 (8 x 5) closes. 06/09/15 - REST07/09/15 - #1.5 45 (9 x 5) closes. 08/09/15 - #1.5 50 (10 x 5) closes09/09/15 - #1.5 55 (11 x 5) closes. 10/09/15 - REST11/09/15 - REST12/09/15 - #1.5 60 (12 x 5) closes.13/09/15 - #1.5 65 (13 x 5) closes.14/09/15 - #1.5 70 (14 x 5) closes. 15/09/15 - REST16/09/15 - REST -----------------------------------------17/09/15 - #2 First close. 1 x 5 singles. 18/09/15 - #1.5 75 (15 x 5) closes.19/09/15 - #1.5 80 (16 x 5) closes.20/09/15 - #1.5 85 (17 x 5) closes. Happy with progress so far. From first close of the #1 to first close of the #2 in 23 days. Plan is to continue adding volume until I can switch to consistent doubles on the #2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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