climber511 Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I've been at this stuff since 1959 and I have tried just about everything - including WS and Biofeedback. Everything will work if done intelligently - BUT certain ways of training will fit different times and stages of ones training life much better than others. Doing advanced protocols before they are necessary will hurt you when you plateau and need that more intense stimulation to continue making gains. The first thing to consider is always the end - where are you trying to get to - what is the goal? Until you answer that question how in the world can you know what method of training will be best for you? Pick a basic programming method and run with it for a while - don't over think the whole thing. Work the basics until your training log shows you have milked it for all its worth (which is a lot longer than the average guy thinks) - then an intermediate program for all that's worth - don't even think about all the fancy advanced stuff until you actually are advanced (and if you have to ask, you are NOT advanced, at least not advanced enough). Lifting has become a sport of extremes anymore - more and more and more weight lifted and often with a huge price paid for it in injuries and health problems. It's supposed to be fun and enhance your entire life and the things you can do all through your life - not just under the bar in the gym. Relax and enjoy the journey - of course work hard but have some fun with it too. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Though I adore these movements, there is far more to the equation of strength and human movement than just these numbers. I doubt Jet Li can deadlift 500#, but to say he hasn't reach his human potential is kinda ludicrous. My name on the Red Nail Roster. Those were three examples. I believe we both understood that. Li hadn't reached his potential. It's absurd you're trying to argue this point. He was a diligent student no matter his level- he knew that there was always more he could achieve. I think you're throwing around the term "genetic potential" without enough consideration. What I think you do mean is you've exceeded your norm. I'm not trying to take anything away from you, because a red nail cert is something to be proud of. Rather I think that you're selling yourself short by saying you've exceeded the natural limits of your body. I doubt you mean that BF is not natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sharkey Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 What? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Here's mine in a nutshell: No one, not Louis Simmons, nor Eric Milfeld, nor Adam Glass, not Ip Man is a better teacher for you then your own body. It's the age of independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellswindstaff Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 My experience has been that heavy isometrics and partials lead to tendonitis. They do build serious strength though. I disagree with any statement about "exceeding genetics." It is necessarily impossible to do without some non-natural enhancement. As with all training you must deload, in some form or another. You must also moderate volume and pre-hab is never a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 What? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Here's mine in a nutshell: No one, not Louis Simmons, nor Eric Milfeld, nor Adam Glass, not Ip Man is a better teacher for you then your own body. It's the age of independence. I can agree with that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 What? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Here's mine in a nutshell: No one, not Louis Simmons, nor Eric Milfeld, nor Adam Glass, not Ip Man is a better teacher for you then your own body. It's the age of independence. It is all relative to what you are trying to achieve. I personally reached a 700+ deadlift and squat, imo no where near my "genetic potential" using a mixture of periodization and heavy band work. Never got anything out of speed work. I would never recommend westside type training as I never got much out of it. As far as injuries go I pulled in excess of 700 without a single injury. As a matter of fact the only thing that ever injured me was steel bending. I stand by what I said earlier: for the best mix of strength and mass you beat a HIT type routine with lots of cardio sprinkled in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Damn tablet that should read you CAN'T beat a HIT type routine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sharkey Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Rick all I'm saying is everyone is unique. What works smoothly for one person won't necessarily work for another. I'll never have a 700# DL no matter what program I use, BUT, the best approach I have found is to discuss it with my body. Also, in about 4 or 5 years now, I have never failed to set a PR, every workout. Every exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Aurthur Jones HIT (or any of the other HIT gurus versions) have produced no World Champions in any sport I am aware of - especially weightlifting. Biofeedback has produced no World Champions in any sport I am aware of - especially weightlifting. Both have produced some very strong people of course but so has training with no real plan at all but just using one's head and training basics hard. Read about different champion lifters and various athletes and you will find training plans all over the map - and each is producing good lifters and athletes. Don't marry yourself to any one thing too deeply or to the point you become closed minded about other possibilities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Aurthur Jones HIT (or any of the other HIT gurus versions) have produced no World Champions in any sport I am aware of - especially weightlifting. Biofeedback has produced no World Champions in any sport I am aware of - especially weightlifting. Both have produced some very strong people of course but so has training with no real plan at all but just using one's head and training basics hard. Read about different champion lifters and various athletes and you will find training plans all over the map - and each is producing good lifters and athletes. Don't marry yourself to any one thing too deeply or to the point you become closed minded about other possibilities. I guess we have forgotten about Dorian Yates and his multiple Olympia titles? How about Mike Mentzer himself? Never an Olympian but still a high level champ. Both proponents of a HIT style of training. I never mentioned Jones, I said HIT like. Chris you of all people should know I have never closed myself off to one style of training and by keeping an open mind I have achieved many milestones both powerlifting and grip wise. As a soon to be 37 year old father of 4, with health issues no less, I have found what works for SIZE and STRENGTH which is what the author of this post asked about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Aurthur Jones HIT (or any of the other HIT gurus versions) have produced no World Champions in any sport I am aware of - especially weightlifting. Biofeedback has produced no World Champions in any sport I am aware of - especially weightlifting. Both have produced some very strong people of course but so has training with no real plan at all but just using one's head and training basics hard. Read about different champion lifters and various athletes and you will find training plans all over the map - and each is producing good lifters and athletes. Don't marry yourself to any one thing too deeply or to the point you become closed minded about other possibilities. I guess we have forgotten about Dorian Yates and his multiple Olympia titles? How about Mike Mentzer himself? Never an Olympian but still a high level champ. Both proponents of a HIT style of training. I never mentioned Jones, I said HIT like. Chris you of all people should know I have never closed myself off to one style of training and by keeping an open mind I have achieved many milestones both powerlifting and grip wise. As a soon to be 37 year old father of 4, with health issues no less, I have found what works for SIZE and STRENGTH which is what the author of this post asked about. Rick - you and I have talked training more than once and we agree on many things but in my mind Body Building is not a "sport" involving performance athletes. Yes HIT has worked well for you but the idea behind my post is that more than one thing can and will work (targeted at the original poster). I hated HIT for example - it goes against MY goals almost completely (rock climbers don't HIT ). Well this rock climber anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Scott Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 (edited) Rick all I'm saying is everyone is unique. What works smoothly for one person won't necessarily work for another. I'll never have a 700# DL no matter what program I use, BUT, the best approach I have found is to discuss it with my body. Also, in about 4 or 5 years now, I have never failed to set a PR, every workout. Every exercise. Assuming you train 3-4 days a week, if you have been setting PR for every workout for the last 5 years, you would be at the Olympics winning medals and certified on the #4 gripper. Edited April 13, 2014 by Sam Scott 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Pizzo Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 I think everyone has brought up some good points, (especially Rick, Chris, and Mike) and no one is probably going to change anyone's mind. I'm going to continue to do double's triple's and single's, and Shooter77b50 is probably going to continue to do 1000's of reps every workout week after week. If he reports back in a few months that he's now a 250 lb + super strong lifter then I for one will have learned something! If not, no big deal, back to the drawing board. I look forward to seeing what is possible with plenty of will and determination. Good luck Shooter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Pizzo Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Assuming you train 3-4 days a week, if you have been setting PR for every workout for the last 5 years, you would be at the Olympics winning medals and certified on the #4 gripper. Not really...when I started training my max bench was 115 lbs (yes you read that correctly) it took me about three years to get to 300, and another two to get to 350, and longer yet to surpass that number by a noticeable amount. So after 5 years I was only a 350 lb bench presser...hardly olympic caliber lol! It just depends on where you start! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvance Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Rick all I'm saying is everyone is unique. What works smoothly for one person won't necessarily work for another. I'll never have a 700# DL no matter what program I use, BUT, the best approach I have found is to discuss it with my body. Also, in about 4 or 5 years now, I have never failed to set a PR, every workout. Every exercise. Assuming you train 3-4 days a week, if you have been setting PR for every workout for the last 5 years, you would be at the Olympics winning medals and certified on the #4 gripper. A PR doesn't have to be a constant increase in 1rep max. Volume density and other increases in strength capacity are highly valued PRs. So your statement had some unbased assumptions that a PR is only a near daily increase in top end strength. I don't follow biofeedback all the time but I do adhere to the principles and I think there truths in the program. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 ShooterB77, screw this and go do your 10x10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sharkey Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 (edited) Don't marry yourself to any one thing too deeply or to the point you become closed minded about other possibilities. This. Not really...when I started training my max bench was 115 lbs (yes you read that correctly) it took me about three years to get to 300, and another two to get to 350, and longer yet to surpass that number by a noticeable amount. So after 5 years I was only a 350 lb bench presser...hardly olympic caliber lol! It just depends on where you start! This has the real essence of wisdom in it. You can't compare one person to another. You can only compare them to themselves. Where they started and where they are now. When I started, I couldn't bench press 100#. Now I can bench 100# for 2 or 3 reps. So that's progress Edited April 13, 2014 by Mike Sharkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sharkey Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Rick all I'm saying is everyone is unique. What works smoothly for one person won't necessarily work for another. I'll never have a 700# DL no matter what program I use, BUT, the best approach I have found is to discuss it with my body. Also, in about 4 or 5 years now, I have never failed to set a PR, every workout. Every exercise. Assuming you train 3-4 days a week, if you have been setting PR for every workout for the last 5 years, you would be at the Olympics winning medals and certified on the #4 gripper. Can we get rid of this troll already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 The author asked about opinions on 10x10 for size and strength. That being his primary goals, not athletic ability or climbing or fighting. Size and strength. He has received many opinions to include mine. Had he asked about training for other goals I would give different advice. To add size and strength I am a believer in HIT type training and super slow eccentrics. This has always worked for me and many I have helped. Remember you grow when you rest so tearing the muscle down then giving it time to heal will obviously make it grow. Add reps or weight every time, eat and sleep, and you grow and get stronger. More sets then a couple are counter productive as they arent taxing the muscle enough to elicit a change. I used to do a ton of volume and it worked. Then life got in the way and I reduced my volume and started working harder. I soon discovered the same results could be acheived in a quarter of the time if I was willing to take a set to the absolute limits of that days capabilities. Less time in the gym when there are 4 year olds that want to go fishing is always a good thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sharkey Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 The Internet: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Don't marry yourself to any one thing too deeply or to the point you become closed minded about other possibilities. This. Not really...when I started training my max bench was 115 lbs (yes you read that correctly) it took me about three years to get to 300, and another two to get to 350, and longer yet to surpass that number by a noticeable amount. So after 5 years I was only a 350 lb bench presser...hardly olympic caliber lol! It just depends on where you start! This has the real essence of wisdom in it. You can't compare one person to another. You can only compare them to themselves. Where they started and where they are now. When I started, I couldn't bench press 100#. Now I can bench 100# for 2 or 3 reps. So that's progress What's your bench 1RM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sharkey Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 What's your bench 1RM? Don't know for sure, as I don't actually have a bench. Probably 225, maybe just a little more on a good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwwm Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 What's your bench 1RM? Don't know for sure, as I don't actually have a bench. Probably 225, maybe just a little more on a good day. Mike - I think you have a typo somewhere. If you can bench 100# for 2-3 reps, that puts you pretty far from 225#. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sharkey Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Mike - I think you have a typo somewhere. If you can bench 100# for 2-3 reps, that puts you pretty far from 225#. I was being sarcastic in my original statement I thought obviously, but my humor doesn't translate well into English, or for that matter human, apparently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwwm Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Mike - I think you have a typo somewhere. If you can bench 100# for 2-3 reps, that puts you pretty far from 225#. I was being sarcastic in my original statement I thought obviously, but my humor doesn't translate well into English, or for that matter human, apparently Ah, ok. I have that problem too. A lot of stuff I type, I think is going to be hilarious, and then people have nothing to say about it. The interwebs only convey so much. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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