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Discussion about NAGSC attendance.


anwnate

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Just starting this since the NAGSC 2016 thread got sidetracked.

Basically, is there a need to be concerned? (Michael S. correctly pointed out that this isn't outside of statistical norms.)

If there is a need for concern, then what is causing a diminished attendance...or a lack of growth in US Gripsport?

If anyone IS content with the current system...I am curious as to where you see the sport to be in 20 years...and how we will get from point A. to point B.

I have no good answers, but wanted any further discussion to move from the official 2016 thread.

 

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I will stand behind the thoughts I have had for years now - we need an actual "Organization" completely separated from the forum.  It has to offer protection for officers, promoters, and members who pay dues and on and on.  The best and certainly worst thing bout the sport is the GB and the dozens of opinions constantly being expressed (all different of course) about the future - until such time as this happens it's going to the same chaos only different. 

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2 minutes ago, climber511 said:

I will stand behind the thoughts I have had for years now - we need an actual "Organization" completely separated from the forum.  It has to offer protection for officers, promoters, and members who pay dues and on and on.  The best and certainly worst thing bout the sport is the GB and the dozens of opinions constantly being expressed (all different of course) about the future - until such time as this happens it's going to the same chaos only different. 

Ok...how does something like this come to life?  I would think it's inception would be complete chaos...but then again so was this fledgling nation at one time.

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I haven't attended Nationals, so I'm not sure if I have a right to voice my opinion, but I wanted to throw a few thoughts out there.  I feel like Nationals should be for the best of the best in gripsport, so it's difficult for me to imagine a novice division at a contest like this.  Certainly a novice division would increase attendance, but I'm not sure that's the right way to go.  I'll probably get crucified for this next comment, but I also feel like the qualification standards for a contest of this level are a bit watered down.  I know that raising the standards isn't going to increase attendance, but again, this contest is supposed to be for the absolute cream of the crop in grip.  My last comment might also be a bit controversial, but I think it reflected very poorly on the Nationals contest when people started complaining that a 6# sledge would be too heavy for a new event that Jedd wanted to introduce.  Really???  You have the best of the best competing in this contest.........the elite of the sport, and a 6# sledge is too heavy?  That's about the craziest thing I've ever heard.  I sincerely hope my comments don't offend anybody, because that's not my intent at all.

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17 minutes ago, IROC-Z said:

I haven't attended Nationals, so I'm not sure if I have a right to voice my opinion, but I wanted to throw a few thoughts out there.  I feel like Nationals should be for the best of the best in gripsport, so it's difficult for me to imagine a novice division at a contest like this.  Certainly a novice division would increase attendance, but I'm not sure that's the right way to go.  I'll probably get crucified for this next comment, but I also feel like the qualification standards for a contest of this level are a bit watered down.  I know that raising the standards isn't going to increase attendance, but again, this contest is supposed to be for the absolute cream of the crop in grip.  My last comment might also be a bit controversial, but I think it reflected very poorly on the Nationals contest when people started complaining that a 6# sledge would be too heavy for a new event that Jedd wanted to introduce.  Really???  You have the best of the best competing in this contest.........the elite of the sport, and a 6# sledge is too heavy?  That's about the craziest thing I've ever heard.  I sincerely hope my comments don't offend anybody, because that's not my intent at all.

I think we are just trying to problems solve here man.  Hopefully no one takes things too personally.  Speaking of which...is there a problem to begin with?  If so...what's to be done about it?

Without watering down Qualifiers or having a novice division...the only thing I've heard that could help attendance would be a multi-venue event...which many feel diminishes the vibe.

But let's bring up cost too.  How is this supposed to be the best of the best...when it's really "the best who can afford or take the time to show up?" 

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I like the idea of Regional Championships. But if one of the goals of having Regional Championships is to increase attendance at the NAGS Championship, I’m not convinced it will work. Though the idea of the top finishers in each region proceeding to the NAGS Championship is nice, what is there to increase the incentive to move on to this step? I feel that attendance would still be limited, with only a few of the elite competitors going.  

I’m leaning towards being in favour of a multi-venue NAGS Championship. Though the “vibe” wouldn’t be the same, I think the realities of travel costs and the limited pool of competitors make a multi-venue contest a pragmatic alternative.

I think the following could be cool:

A dozen or so Regional Championships held between February and April. The individual events at these contests could be selected at the promoter’s discretion (i.e. they would not need to be the same in every region). These contests would not need to be done on the same day. These contests would be open to all competitors.

A multi-venue NAGS Championship (possibly the same venues used for the Regional Championships) held in early June. This contest would feature the same events and be held on the same date across North America. You would need to qualify to participate – possibly my finishing among the top three in your weight class at your Regional Championship.

Thoughts?

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59 minutes ago, IROC-Z said:

I haven't attended Nationals, so I'm not sure if I have a right to voice my opinion, but I wanted to throw a few thoughts out there.  I feel like Nationals should be for the best of the best in gripsport, so it's difficult for me to imagine a novice division at a contest like this.  Certainly a novice division would increase attendance, but I'm not sure that's the right way to go.  I'll probably get crucified for this next comment, but I also feel like the qualification standards for a contest of this level are a bit watered down.  I know that raising the standards isn't going to increase attendance, but again, this contest is supposed to be for the absolute cream of the crop in grip.  My last comment might also be a bit controversial, but I think it reflected very poorly on the Nationals contest when people started complaining that a 6# sledge would be too heavy for a new event that Jedd wanted to introduce.  Really???  You have the best of the best competing in this contest.........the elite of the sport, and a 6# sledge is too heavy?  That's about the craziest thing I've ever heard.  I sincerely hope my comments don't offend anybody, because that's not my intent at all.

Agreed, the nationals should be heavy and it should be hard. Again I keep going back to North American Strongman as my model here. I really think we should reach out to Dione Wessels and or the USS Chair Willie Wessels  for advice on how to organize this. Strongman corp has two divide orgs. One for Amauter competition and regulation and another for pros. They've even set up the worlds strongest women contest. We are no where close to that. But if our current leadership were to reach out and gleen some information on how to build an organization that has dues, concrete rules and a system in which there is a Chain of command by state. We will better off, THIS in my opinion will increase our legitimacy as a sport. Who knows if we reach out we could actually combine forces and have our Nationals featured at a major strong contest like Strongman Nationals (Last year I think it was in Vegas, this year I think its in Iowa)

Novice division should be the place to try things out, get a feel for the sport and see if you want to continue. As I've said before if you are top three in the novice division you move up to the open classes. I think we are over complicating the issue right now with this Bros leading Bros. If we expect to grow in numbers we have to bring a stronger image of the sport out to the masses.

I suggested a Community booth at the Arnold paid for by everyone here and attended by everyone that can show up. What better place to attempt to bring awarness to our sport then at the biggest strength event in the US.  I've also been trying to set up mini booths at strength contests, but no one has bit yet on that. I'm in talks with a very well respected promoter here in NC and I hope I can convince the guy to add some grip elements in his November contest.

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4 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said:

I like the idea of Regional Championships. But if one of the goals of having Regional Championships is to increase attendance at the NAGS Championship, I’m not convinced it will work. Though the idea of the top finishers in each region proceeding to the NAGS Championship is nice, what is there to increase the incentive to move on to this step? I feel that attendance would still be limited, with only a few of the elite competitors going.  

I’m leaning towards being in favour of a multi-venue NAGS Championship. Though the “vibe” wouldn’t be the same, I think the realities of travel costs and the limited pool of competitors make a multi-venue contest a pragmatic alternative.

I think the following could be cool:

A dozen or so Regional Championships held between February and April. The individual events at these contests could be selected at the promoter’s discretion (i.e. they would not need to be the same in every region). These contests would not need to be done on the same day. These contests would be open to all competitors.

A multi-venue NAGS Championship (possibly the same venues used for the Regional Championships) held in early June. This contest would feature the same events and be held on the same date across North America. You would need to qualify to participate – possibly my finishing among the top three in your weight class at your Regional Championship.

Thoughts?

Really not a bad idea. I can go with this. But how do we get more people to compete in the first place?

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^By exposing the sport to as many people as possible, in many of the ways being shared on this board.

In terms of attendance at the NAGS Championship, I could see the average attendance of about 20 shooting up to about 100 simply by making it a multi-venue contest.

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1 hour ago, Eric Roussin said:

A multi-venue NAGS Championship (possibly the same venues used for the Regional Championships) held in early June. This contest would feature the same events and be held on the same date across North America. You would need to qualify to participate – possibly my finishing among the top three in your weight class at your Regional Championship.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure if you are saying top three in your weight class...whether or not you have a 3 feat qualifier also?

I do believe that the idea of using the regional venues over again could work for increasing overall attendance year to year. 

1 hour ago, Eric Roussin said:

^By exposing the sport to as many people as possible, in many of the ways being shared on this board.

In terms of attendance at the NAGS Championship, I could see the average attendance of about 20 shooting up to about 100 simply by making it a multi-venue contest.

That would be nuts, amazing and very cool.  

I'm not quite as optimistic, but assuming we are keeping minimum qualifiers, I could see doubling the best attendance (27) to say 54 people the first year of implementation.  In time...yeah 100 is possible...maybe more so.  Winning a division with 12-15 people in it will be much more satisfying than winning one with 2. 

I'd love to see people like Aaron, Tom, Matt and Tommy competing each and every year.  Who knows...maybe if it was just down the road, maybe a Paul Knight or two would show back up for the halibut. ;)  Personally...in shape or not, I'd definitely show every year to a local Nats.  And if I was not well...I'd come and cheer.

With the Pickup Artists/Arm wrestlers in Charlotte, I can't even imagine how many people would (qualify and) participate in Nationals.  I think Retarides got like 15 peeps for a training session recently.  Definitely something in the water there.

I'm kind of sold on the multi-venue thing...but I'm 100% sure there is an opposing opinion.  

I'd like to hear some downsides.

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I think Nationals should be a one venue contest.  We would lose grippers and medley as an event if it became multi venue.  

King Kong seems to be the bees knees of multi venue contests.  I'd love to see that grow to 200 competitors or more.

Everyone should make it a goal to bring at least one person with them to compete and boom we just doubled attendance.  I've gotten a few guys into grip who had never heard of it before.  1 of them still competes but he's been injured the last 2 contests.  The other one is stuck in a job that can't get weekends off.  I'll do my best to bring someone new again to this years King Kong.

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4 minutes ago, Jeff Parker said:

I think Nationals should be a one venue contest.  We would lose grippers and medley as an event if it became multi venue.  

 

The medley is a good point.  I'm not sure why we lose grippers though.  It's true that we "now" have a sweet set of NAGSC grippers, but that's a recent development (2014).

I've got a comp set at least as good as the NAGSC ones (also by CPW).  Jedd's got a massive collection.  If a reasonable rule of thumb could be created for gaps, I believe collections could be assembled for the Multi-venue comp.  Would it be super easy?  Nope.  Just saying that it could be done. (Cannon has been known to rate entire collections before)

Good that you brought this stuff up.  I totally overlooked things like this.

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8 minutes ago, anwnate said:

The medley is a good point.  I'm not sure why we lose grippers though.  It's true that we "now" have a sweet set of NAGSC grippers, but that's a recent development (2014).

I've got a comp set at least as good as the NAGSC ones (also by CPW).  Jedd's got a massive collection.  If a reasonable rule of thumb could be created for gaps, I believe collections could be assembled for the Multi-venue comp.  Would it be super easy?  Nope.  Just saying that it could be done. (Cannon has been known to rate entire collections before)

Good that you brought this stuff up.  I totally overlooked things like this.

I think there are two reasons grippers still wouldn't work.

1st Even if we got gaps down to something very small like 4lbs, we would still not have the same jumps at each contest site.  If my site has 160 then 164 and I closed the 160 and missed the 164 but another site had 161 and 165 and my competitor closed the 161 and missed the 165, did he really beat me just because my venue didn't have a 161?

2nd gripper ratings only tell part of the difficulty.  An RB 150 is usually easier than an Ironmind 150.  Andrew had TNS grippers at a contest and I closed a 136 RB gripper pretty easily.  I have a 135GHP that I couldn't get get.  I also have a 182 RB that is barely harder than my 170 3.5.

David Horne used to do the Vulcan gripper at WSH, he even sent out contest springs to all the promotors from the same batch but even then I dont think they were spot on. 

Obviously surface texture and seasoning change from device to device at multi venue comps so a multi venue contest will never be the same as everyone competing under the same roof.

After I type all of this I realize that we have the same problems with jumps at multi venue contests with weights since everything is weighed to the hundredths of a pound.  Sometimes one person beats another simply because the 10lb plate at their contest weighed 10.12 instead of 10.09.  For placement reasons, not records, maybe everything should be rounded down to the nearest pound for multivenue contests.

Good discussions Nate, typing and talking  really gets the mind working on this stuff

 

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I went through most of this 40 or so years ago when PL was having the big feuds going on.  Trying to reinvent the wheel this way is going to water things down to where we're going to have to wear Speedos to comps.  Feeder comps are one thing - Nationals are another entirely - think things through please - same day - same venue - same equipment - best man wins.  Anything else is meaningless. 

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To me, I think Nationals needs to be at the same place, myself.  That way the equipment is all the same, the conditions are all the same, and you've got to deal with the same pressure as everyone else.  That way, there's no questions, so-and-so stepped up and won.  That's my opinion on the matter.

I've seen a lot of people bring up the cost thing - here's a tip I picked from my Dad. NAGSC is in June or July each year, start saving the day after the comp this year, to go next year.  You break a 5, put the leftover money in a can.  You can have close to $500 by the end of the year.  It's a mistake to wait until the official announcement and then try to pay for the trip then and there.  Stash the money away throughout the year.  This is what I used to do for hunting and ice fishing season back when I still did them a lot, and it worked out great.  If I ever wanted to do an Odd Haugen comp, this is what I would do.

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3 minutes ago, Jedd Johnson said:

To me, I think Nationals needs to be at the same place, myself.  That way the equipment is all the same, the conditions are all the same, and you've got to deal with the same pressure as everyone else.  That way, there's no questions, so-and-so stepped up and won.  That's my opinion on the matter.

Despite being the one who threw the multi-venue idea out there, I agree with this too.  I am really digging the idea of Regionals though. 

Thanks to everyone who is willing to express their feelings about the topic.  It's all good discussion.   

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24 minutes ago, climber511 said:

I went through most of this 40 or so years ago when PL was having the big feuds going on.  Trying to reinvent the wheel this way is going to water things down to where we're going to have to wear Speedos to comps.  Feeder comps are one thing - Nationals are another entirely - think things through please - same day - same venue - same equipment - best man wins.  Anything else is meaningless. 

Absolutely not trying to antagonize you here Chris...but I'm skeptical what exactly "Nationals" means...beyond the need for a qualify for the event.

Ignoring strongmen (like David Labbe...who took second his first and only time out), Nationals still does not determine the absolute order of grip skill in the US.

NAGSC itself...is not meaningless...but NAGSC's does determine the order of those who actually show up at Nationals.  

Let's take a person who has closed a #4, pinched 255lbs on the Euro, can lift the INCH and recently managed a win in a Sanctioned Grip Contest against our reigning NAGS Champion.  Surely this person would have changed the results of NAGSC?  

Let's be honest...if Nationals does not vary it's location...or become a Multi-venue event...it benefits those with means...or those who live close by.  If NAGSC was held in Texas or Washington, or Arizona...would those promoters be wondering where all the people are?

2 minutes ago, Jedd Johnson said:

I've seen a lot of people bring up the cost thing - here's a tip I picked from my Dad. NAGSC is in June or July each year, start saving the day after the comp this year, to go next year.  You break a 5, put the leftover money in a can.  You can have close to $500 by the end of the year.  It's a mistake to wait until the official announcement and then try to pay for the trip then and there.  Stash the money away throughout the year.  This is what I used to do for hunting and ice fishing season back when I still did them a lot, and it worked out great.  If I ever wanted to do an Odd Haugen comp, this is what I would do.

Well...that's great and all...but let's tack on another $500-600 dollars for airfare for the people in the West (i.e. Matt Cannon, Aaron Corcorran).  Can you get a break buying early...sure...let's make it $300-500.  Does any of this strike you as a tiny bit "unfair"?  Just sayin. 

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11 minutes ago, Jedd Johnson said:

To me, I think Nationals needs to be at the same place, myself.  That way the equipment is all the same, the conditions are all the same, and you've got to deal with the same pressure as everyone else.  That way, there's no questions, so-and-so stepped up and won.  That's my opinion on the matter.

I completely agree that this is the ideal, for the reasons listed. We just need to accept that if we stick to this ideal, the event will likely continue to struggle to attract 20+ competitors.

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We could always meet in Lebenon Ks which is the geographical center of the US. :D

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21 minutes ago, Eric Roussin said:

I completely agree that this is the ideal, for the reasons listed. We just need to accept that if we stick to this ideal, the event will likely continue to struggle to attract 20+ competitors.

How many people (total) have competed in Grip Sport in the last few years (at any level)?  And what percentage of those actually qualify (by old or new standards - by competition placement or by qualifying feats) for Nationals?  What percent of People "should" qualify in regards to the strength standards put forth?  How big should Nationals be (regardless of venue location(s))?  Should Nationals be the top (what?) percentage of each weight class?  Top 5% - 10% - etc? 

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1 minute ago, climber511 said:

How many people (total) have competed in Grip Sport in the last few years (at any level)?  And what percentage of those actually qualify (by old or new standards - by competition placement or by qualifying feats) for Nationals?  What percent of People "should" qualify in regards to the strength standards put forth?  How big should Nationals be (regardless of venue location(s))?  Should Nationals be the top (what?) percentage of each weight class?  Top 5% - 10% - etc? 

These are excellent questions.  I don't have a clue as to find the answers.  Obviously we are not that organized... yet.  I was happy enough to find out the breakdown of NAGSC competitors in the last 5 years.

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28 minutes ago, climber511 said:

How many people (total) have competed in Grip Sport in the last few years (at any level)?  And what percentage of those actually qualify (by old or new standards - by competition placement or by qualifying feats) for Nationals?  What percent of People "should" qualify in regards to the strength standards put forth?  How big should Nationals be (regardless of venue location(s))?  Should Nationals be the top (what?) percentage of each weight class?  Top 5% - 10% - etc? 

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what your post is trying to get at is that Nationals should be for the top competitors, and being that the entire field of grip sport competitors is quite limited, that we shouldn’t really expect a massive turnout.

If grip sport had numbers like Crossfit, Nationals could be limited to the top 5% of competitors, and there would still be lots of people competing. But because we don’t, we end of with weight classes with 2-3 competitors. If I had the choice of competing at Nationals against only Lucas, Gil, and Kody, or competing against these three as well as a handful of other competitors, I’d prefer the latter. Even if some of the competitors are not “National” caliber. 3rd out of 10 sounds like more of an achievement than 3rd out of 3.

To Nate’s point, the NAGS Championship doesn’t currently attract all of the top grip competitors (especially those in the super-heavyweight division). Unless significant money comes into the sport, it never will. So we can try to limit the contest to the top competitors, but we’ll never be able to attract all of them.

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Up until this year USAPL raw nationals had such a low qualifying total that basically anyone could go and then as raw powerlifting became more popular they had a huge nationals meet last year, close to 1000 lifters I believe. Because of that they increase the qualifying total for this year to something pretty decent but attainable and I'm sure they will have about half as many people come as last year. If we want more people to attend just make it more available.  Does it make it less prestigious if there are guys there competing that aren't as strong as the winners? If it gets to a point where we 100+ People signing up for Nationals then we know it's to increase qualitifying standards. 

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So really it comes down to attraction, accessibility, and prizes. But even then Strongman has Nationals at a different venue every year and I think America's Strongman is also at different venues. Not sure about the crossfit games or anything. 

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I am enjoying this discussion and a lot of good ideas and points are being brought up. Thank you to everyone contributing.

My own personal thoughts on this. The sport is still small and young in many ways. Hopefully it will eventually grow into something more organised with bigger consistent athlete and promoter pools. That is gonna take time no matter what and requires exposure for sure. I think I had my 10yr anniversary on the board here recently and at least 9+ of that I have been competing and nearly as long running comps too. I love it and certainly hope we can grow it. At this point I do really like the idea of doing regional comps the way Eric has suggested. And while I really think that having Nats be at one venue with those that show up is ideal, I don't think we are drawing enough competitors for various reasons to really make it as what it should be ideally. I think that considering doing a multi-venue Nats with same events, same day, etc like WSH or King Kong in the interim until there is more exposure and involvement would not be a bad idea. Then if we can find sponsorship with greater exposure, involvement, organization, dues, whatever that would potentially allow for prize money at a nationals level it would be a lot more reasonable to condense it back to a larger, more prestigious single venue. 

Another thing regarding variability between poundages of grippers, or slight differences in weight of plates or equip between venues, we already have that issue within the same venue on the Euro between the different widths. People pinching at different widths in the same comp can't hit the same exact number so does it really matter? Hell I have a comp set of Eleikos and probably one of the nicest euro setups in the world and still can't do that.

The thought of only 10-15 people showing up for the championships of US and Canada combined honestly makes me feel sick.

- Aaron

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