EricMilfeld Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm hopeful I discovered the source of my deadlift-induced sciatic nerve pain. Until today I assumed it was simply a minor bulged disc from heavy weights and lumbar flexion. But with a little more research I'm leaning towards piriformis muscle tightness. After some stretching exercises and rolling on my pvc pipe I discovered my left piriformis is painfully tight. But after just a few minutes of stretching I was able to touch the floor and rotate to my right without the typical shooting pain up my left hamstring. If it turns out to be this simple I'll be thrilled. The question remaining would be what is the root cause of the tightness. I haven't ruled out the use of a mix grip causing some sort of imbalance. I've tried hook gripping, but discovered it's not an option. So now I'm just going to experiment for a bit. Perhaps reversing my mix grip from set to set, or maybe doing the heavier weights with straps, or something along those lines could be beneficial. Hopefully stretching and self myofascial release alone will cure it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Bench 232x8x2 232x9 Now to wrap up with some LGC revolving handle work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Deadlift (beltless) 406x7 406x8 Deadlift from 3" Deficit (beltless) 356x7 Barbell Rows 201x7x3 I alternated my pronation/supination orientation on my mixed grip with each set of deadlifts. Maybe it will serve to keep everything balanced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 It's the day after a decent deadlift workout and no annoying nerve issues anywhere, so I'm remaining hopeful it was simply muscle tightness and inflammation all these years. Relieved and a little impressed that I could put up with it and progress for over thirty years. Lol. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 What's the pain worth to you? Meaning, is it worth using a grinding, bowed back form on your all out pulls to get the weight, damn the sciatic nerve issues and possible bulging disc, or are you willing to break down your form completely and lower the weight in order to do this for a few more years than you originally thought? It's a question we all have to answer. My knee pain sucks and makes me about as fun to be around as a crocodile with a tooth ache, but I have seen first hand what back pain can do. Cleaning up a bowed back deadlift form will only lead to bigger pulls down the road. Remember, the stress on those discs on a bowed back are huge in comparison to a straight back. I would add a heavy dose of back extensions from all angles (standing, seated, hyper machine, etc.) and try to strengthen your back to where you can pull any weight with a flat back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Rick, you raise some issues I've given a lot of thought to lately. My form is less rounded today than it has been for several decades. It's presently somewhere between Lamar Gant's and Rick Walker's. My 644 deadlift posted here in my gallery (which I can't watch for some reason) is a good example of me at my "roundest". I was going to post a side view of my current form video taped by my son a few weeks ago, but he erased it from his phone. This struck me as odd. I was sure he would be sharing it with all his friends. But anyways, I'll get him to video my next session and post it for critiquing. I feel comfortable with it. Is it the least risky form I could possibly use? Probably not. Maybe it comes down to how much risk is acceptable for the individual personally. I've been fortunate to have never hurt my back pulling, save a minor lat pull when I was on a crash diet to make the 163 pound class for 2013 Grip Nationals. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Rick, you raise some issues I've given a lot of thought to lately. My form is less rounded today than it has been for several decades. It's presently somewhere between Lamar Gant's and Rick Walker's. My 644 deadlift posted here in my gallery (which I can't watch for some reason) is a good example of me at my "roundest". I was going to post a side view of my current form video taped by my son a few weeks ago, but he erased it from his phone. This struck me as odd. I was sure he would be sharing it with all his friends. But anyways, I'll get him to video my next session and post it for critiquing. I feel comfortable with it. Is it the least risky form I could possibly use? Probably not. Maybe it comes down to how much risk is acceptable for the individual personally. I've been fortunate to have never hurt my back pulling, save a minor lat pull when I was on a crash diet to make the 163 pound class for 2013 Grip Nationals. I try to save my advice to those who either ask or need it. You certainly know what you are doing. I was comparing each of our issues, your sciatic pain to my knee pain. We are both in the same boat, is it worth it? That is a decision each of us needs to make. I have had to put squats on the back burner for now due to this knee pain and wanting to continue to push my deadlifts and not risk a rupture. I can still belt squat with less of a chance of injury, so I chose to do that. It doesn't make me happy as my squats were feeling super easy and by how everything was feeling I felt like I was going to be repping in the 500s by spring without too much effort. Now I have to swallow my pride and put things in order of importance. With me, pulling is #1. I am also considering adding some bottom up squats into my routine from my deadlift position. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Two years ago I ruptured yet another disk in my lower back pulling out a rose bush - I had probably set the stage for that by training to visit Scotland and do the Stones there. I was laid up for a few months with pain that would have been life altering had it continued. That makes 7 if I go top to bottom on my spine now. When I could no longer lift my grand daughter to hold her I finally had to make the decision no lifter ever wants to make and change my mindset to something different that it had been for all my life. Good luck to both of you - deciding to sort of "pull the plug" was a very hard decision to make. Don't wait to long but don't stop chasing dreams either. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 In your situation I could see myself doing the exact same thing, Rick. Again I count my lucky stars, because although I get all sorts of random pains here and there, including my knees, I always seem able to squat without knee pain. But mother nature is keeping my pride in check and reminds me serious injury is but a poor decision away. 47 ain't 27! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Sage advice, Chris. And thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Good luck to both of you - deciding to sort of "pull the plug" was a very hard decision to make. Don't wait to long but don't stop chasing dreams either. I will be deadlifting until the day they burn my corpse and dump my ashes (illegally of course!) into the Tarpon rich waters off of Boca Grande, FL. I have made my decision, but living a life of pain, ice, and pain killers isn't for everyone. As long as there is still some lead left in the ole pencil I will deal with everything else... As I type this I have ice on my forearm and both knees and already have ingested 1600 mgs of anti inflammatory and some muscle relaxers. I have a number in my head, and if I hit it, I will hang it up. I might be dead before then...only the All Mighty knows that answer! I have a drawing that I had an artist do for me and it is a loaded barbell and it says "Greatest Friend" across the top and "Greatest Enemy" across the bottom. Its my next tattoo. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Squat 277x15 Bench 227x11 Close Grip Bench (18") 207x6 Curl Bar 102x12x2 Sit Up 25x15x2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Bench 242x8x2 242x7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 I filmed a form-check of my deadlifts. Constructive, and even destructive, criticism welcome. Deadlift 476x6 421x6 (beltless) 3" Deficit Deadlift 385x5 Underhand Barbell Row 186x8x3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Scibelli Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Nice job Eric! You got long femurs, that's good for DLing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Nice job Eric! You got long femurs, that's good for DLingAppreciate it, Tom!How about short legs, short torso, and orangutan arms. I'd be pulling at least 900. My long legs definitely make squatting a chore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Scibelli Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Nice job Eric! You got long femurs, that's good for DLingAppreciate it, Tom!How about short legs, short torso, and orangutan arms. I'd be pulling at least 900. My long legs definitely make squatting a chore. Lol, yeah that would be ideal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Eric- I can break your form down for you but the question is, will you make the changes or continue to pull how you pull? That is what it comes down to. Most people are not willing to lose weight to perfect form. That being said, you are dumping the weight forward. Pause the video mid shin and take a look at your position. The bar is drifting away from your body and not allowing you to use your legs to your full potential. Remember to drive your feet into the platform hard and pull back, not just up. Keep it in your head that it is a push than a pull, not just a pull. Shoulders back, maintain back position until the bar passes the knees than extend the hips hard to lockout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Eric- I can break your form down for you but the question is, will you make the changes or continue to pull how you pull? That is what it comes down to. Most people are not willing to lose weight to perfect form. That being said, you are dumping the weight forward. Pause the video mid shin and take a look at your position. The bar is drifting away from your body and not allowing you to use your legs to your full potential. Remember to drive your feet into the platform hard and pull back, not just up. Keep it in your head that it is a push than a pull, not just a pull. Shoulders back, maintain back position until the bar passes the knees than extend the hips hard to lockout. Rick, thanks for the feedback. I agree with all your points, but I wonder if because the plates are blocking the view of my shins it's creating an illusion of the bar leaving my shins (if that's what you meant by "drifting"). I've always pulled the bar against my shins to the extent that any sharp knurling will bloody my shins and leave a solid scrape line all the way up to the base of my knees. And that's not intentionally pulling "into" my shins, but just trying to maintain contact. That's why I'm wearing sweat pants. Ideally a bar would travel vertical, if possible. But maybe my long legs and their forward shin tilt makes a more "efficient" vertical path, if not impossible, actually less efficient. I've thought about this before and that's the best explanation I could come up with. Just thinking out loud. I'd like to know your thoughts. I have seen relatively short legged guys who are capable of pulling efficiently with a vertical bar path using a conventional stance. I don't know, perhaps this isn't possible with taller leggy guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Eric- I can break your form down for you but the question is, will you make the changes or continue to pull how you pull? That is what it comes down to. Most people are not willing to lose weight to perfect form. That being said, you are dumping the weight forward. Pause the video mid shin and take a look at your position. The bar is drifting away from your body and not allowing you to use your legs to your full potential. Remember to drive your feet into the platform hard and pull back, not just up. Keep it in your head that it is a push than a pull, not just a pull. Shoulders back, maintain back position until the bar passes the knees than extend the hips hard to lockout. Rick, thanks for the feedback. I agree with all your points, but I wonder if because the plates are blocking the view of my shins it's creating an illusion of the bar leaving my shins (if that's what you meant by "drifting"). I've always pulled the bar against my shins to the extent that any sharp knurling will bloody my shins and leave a solid scrape line all the way up to the base of my knees. And that's not intentionally pulling "into" my shins, but just trying to maintain contact. That's why I'm wearing sweat pants. Ideally a bar would travel vertical, if possible. But maybe my long legs and their forward shin tilt makes a more "efficient" vertical path, if not impossible, actually less efficient. I've thought about this before and that's the best explanation I could come up with. Just thinking out loud. I'd like to know your thoughts. I have seen relatively short legged guys who are capable of pulling efficiently with a vertical bar path using a conventional stance. I don't know, perhaps this isn't possible with taller leggy guys? Eric- When I say being pulled forward I mean this: your body is in perfect position pre leg drive. Nothing else should move that bar off the platform but leg drive. Just before take off, your body looks to be perfect. When the bar breaks the ground, your back immediately bows. That's what I mean by being pulled forward. I don't think its a long legged thing. I have a friend who is built like you, very short torso, very long legs, and he has hauled up 800 and still routinely pulls in the 700s in his mid 50s with a fake hip! He found a way to sumo where he kept his back damn near vertical and used all hip and leg strength to move the bar. But he could pull just as much conventional. With a lighter weight, step back a bit from the bar. Grip it and pull yourself into the bar so your knees go over the bar, your hips drift towards the bar, your shoulders go back, and your chest comes out, creating a ramp like back. From that position, initiate the pull through a violent drive of your legs into the platform. Do not let that back change position until the bar crosses the knees. I really think it is a back strength issue. I think you need to bring up your lower back via weighted back extensions and even good mornings. Also, bring up your upper back through low rows, chest supported rows, 1-arm rows, and lots of heavy power shrugs. The stronger my lats get, the heavier my deadlift gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Eric- Keep in mind you took a lot of time off and lost a lot of weight. You might just need to bring your back back up to par. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 Rick, thanks for the detailed advice. I'll have to comment later. I am zapped from a long day of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 I think I will start doing some good mornings on deadlift day. I don't really have a practical way to perform weighted extensions in my garage. Rick, I'm not quite convinced my back is the weak link. I tend to think because my back is relatively stronger than my legs I'm able to take advantage of this by rounding my back to allow a more advantageous position for my legs while keeping the bar closer to my hips. Then at the lockout I can take advantage of the stronger back muscles and use my spinal erectors to to "uncurl" my back. That being said, I'm continuing to practice my pulls with less back flexion than I've used in the past. When I get into the starting position you describe and attempt to maintain that back position I feel like I'm performing an olympic squat (something I'm definitely not good at). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 As I said earlier, most people won't change up their form because it usually means a drop in weight. If you are comfortable with your form and you feel it allows you to maximize the weight pulled and minimizes injury, than stay the course. I will just caution you this: Zatsiorsky states in "Science and Practice Of Strength Training" that a 50 kg load = 630 kgs of angled force on the intervertebral discs. That same 50 kg load equals 380 kgs on a flat back. All about preventing injury and staying in the game. I have avoided back issues thus far because I took the time and dropped weight to prevent rounding my back. Some people deadlift tremendous weights with a rounded back. Like I said, its all about the risks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Great article on round back pulling. http://www.t-nation.com/training/strong-case-for-the-rounded-back-deadlift Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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