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Tommy J.

A Legit Joe Kinney Thread

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okay all you patrons who've heard this subject 1000 times.. please forgive me for making another Kinney thread.

im posting this to hopefully clear Kinneys name of being a TOTAL cheat/lair/whatever else hes been called in the past.

what i am NOT hoping to do with this thread, is troll or pick any bones with others who may not agree. so please feel free to discuss respectfully should you feel the need.

being that ive never done so, and am injured at the moment and cant really train, i made a point yesterday to watch the Kinney DVD from start to finish. interesting vid to say the least. especially when i consider all the hype ive ever heard on numerous forums before actually watching the vid in full for myself.

being that im taking the time to post on the subject, i'll get right to it.

do i think Kinney did the squats he claimed?.. not no, but HELL no! impossible. even for top tier powerlifters. end of debate.

do i think Kinney could do a 1 hand hold with 100lbs on a TTK?.. no. it has never been done. even by the best pinchers in gripsport to my knowledge.

do i think Kinney actually closed a legit/solid #4? yes. and i'll tell you why.

in the DVD, or the remake of his original film, the only physical proof af anything he shows, is a crazy #4 close that almost looks fake it has so much authority, a bunch of home made equipment, some scrap parts he used as weight to load on his machines, and some can busting.

lets get straight to the can busting..

does busting a can with 2 hands in either a strangle hold, or with a pinch style grip indicate that he can close a #4? no.

i could bust cans with ONE hand (held straight out at my side, with NO gloves) using a pinch grip when i could bareley close a #3 with a wide set, and could bareley pinch 2-35 lb plates. no big deal. and not really proof of any world class grip IMO. myth busted.

does using home made equipment in the manner he did indicate he could indeed close a #4? yes.

in my opinion the wrist roller is not the give away, the secret weapon is not the give away, but its the plate loaded machine he had mounted to the rim that convinces me. and should also be enough proof for anyone to believe he could at least, "hold" a #4 shut (which, to my knowledge, all Ironmind required at the time for a cert, was a picture of you holding the gripper closed)

if you notice in the video as hes walking the camera through his shed explaining his weights, equipment, and how he used them, he says the short thick plates weigh about 55lbs each (he has 2). okay... believable. dont most 50lb blobs look about the same in size? ...yep. moving right along. he says the 4 tall thin plates (flywheels) weigh about 25lbs each (he has 4). i can vouch for the fact, due to working in a shop with these same parts on a day to day basis, that they are indeed flywheels with the ring gear knocked off. and i havent seen many that weighed less than 25 lbs. even on a small honda. so what we have in plates is roughly 210lbs. (since i could care less if its exact within 5 or even 10 lbs, and im up for negotiation. lets agree on the weight being an even 200lbs) about mid way through the vid, he loads up 4 flywheels (at 25lbs each), and 2 short thick weights (at roughly 50lbs each) at an agreed rough total of 200lbs on to his rim mounted grip machine. he then goes into explaining/demonstrating how he does the negs, holds, etc. on this machine with the 200lbs, plus the weight of the impliment itself. which is about what a solid #4 calibrates at if im correct.

for those that have the vid, watch this part closely. he (casually) with his knees pinning the backsides of his hands to the machine, lifts the weight with both hands, then releases his left hand and holds the weight with his right hand... casually. as he talks to the camera for another couple seconds then releasing the weight at his own will (it didnt force his hand open)...

now lets back up a second.. back in 1998-2000 (which is, i think, when he made the original vid) nobody knew anything about RGC's or was doing them.. so my guess is, he didnt even really know that 200lbs of dead weight on a plate loaded grip machine with 1 hand was comparable to a #4.. neither did anyone else at the time.

so i believe it wasnt his intent to prove anything with this lift, which leads me to believe it is absolutely not faked or staged. hell, why would it have been if nobody knew the difference, and it wasnt really known to be comparable to the resistance of a #4 at the time?..

does this lift prove he did the epic squats he says he did? nope.

does this lift prove he held 100lbs on the TTK with 1 hand? nope.

does this prove he closed and manhandled a legit #4 and grinded the handles from practically a no set? nope.

but what it DOES prove, is the fact that he did indeed have the strength to atleast hold one shut for a pic (which, to my knowledge, is all Ironmind required at the time of his cert)

now, like i said above, it is only my intent to shed some light on an otherwise brushed under the rug feat. not to start a ruckus.

i think the dewd may have ruined his status with the claims of squats and world class pinching, but i also feel he was the first legit #4 closer. and should remain to be without question.

for anyone who may not be convinced, or just dont understand, get a plate loaded grip machine, load 200lbs on it, find a way to brace the backsides of your hands to the machine (dont try to cheat it up with your back and legs like a barbell lift) and attempt to even hold it shut with 1 hand.. and do so casually.. lol, if you can.

my guess is, we will only be seeing this feat replicated by guys we've all seen close #4's. or guys who are REALLY close.

and keep in mind that just about all plate loadable grip machines take dead weight, straigh down. so ther should be no claims of machine dimension handicaps when comparing to other plate loadable grip machines

should anyone feel the need to try, please post how it went in this thread.

word.

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I believe Joe did mostly because of what I read from Heath Sexton's meeting up with Joe. There a lot of people who I trust here and when they believe something I tend to believe it too. Kinney also pioneered a lot of gripper training equipment and techniques. Only a grip obsessed man would do that especial back when no one even cared much about that kind of thing.

one thing I would like to add or point out is about a #4 being 200ish pounds to close. That 200 is only with the leverage you get the last inch of the handle. as you move to the middle of the handle it is 350ish and the top would probably be 600ish pounds to hold close. Since your hand covers the whole range of leverage I think its best to look to the middle #s to get a good idea of the poundage you are holding back. I think the RGC #s are measured at the end so everyone has an easy reference point to put the strap so the comparison of peoples RGC are more consistent.

Man Im sorry to here you injured your self and cant train. When I first saw this long post about Joe Kinney I thought you were Geeking out on Crack! :ninja: After reading the whole thing it made sense, Good post. Get better Tommy

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I believe Joe did mostly because of what I read from Heath Sexton's meeting up with Joe. There a lot of people who I trust here and when they believe something I tend to believe it too. Kinney also pioneered a lot of gripper training equipment and techniques. Only a grip obsessed man would do that especial back when no one even cared much about that kind of thing.

one thing I would like to add or point out is about a #4 being 200ish pounds to close. That 200 is only with the leverage you get the last inch of the handle. as you move to the middle of the handle it is 350ish and the top would probably be 600ish pounds to hold close. Since your hand covers the whole range of leverage I think its best to look to the middle #s to get a good idea of the poundage you are holding back. I think the RGC #s are measured at the end so everyone has an easy reference point to put the strap so the comparison of peoples RGC are more consistent.

Man Im sorry to here you injured your self and cant train. When I first saw this long post about Joe Kinney I thought you were Geeking out on Crack! :ninja: After reading the whole thing it made sense, Good post. Get better Tommy

very good point on the weight bro.

and ya, lol i almost didnt post due to the Kinney threads typically going bad, but i figured this one might end up staying somewhat copasetic.

and thanks bro. i tore my dang hand up again on a horse shoe in thin wraps, only this time i trashed my elbow pretty bad along with the hand... it only hurts when im awake. :laugh

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a good post that was clear, unemotional and well written but unfortunately it may encourage the fringe-dwellers to get out the torches and pitchforks.

I have not watched this dvd for some time. I like your observation re the grip machine and say that I must agree that when the initial footage was shot there was not much hype with grip training so your point is valid. but I do struggle with someone being able to do the squats as stated - however - wasn't there some clarification made at some stage that these were not continuous reps? done like 20-reppers in the 'puff and pant' style.

I hope we can all remain calm and rational.

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The Kinney video was the first grip video I watched, so at the time none of the grip stuff struck me as odd, because I didn't have any experience with it. The squat claims were obvious bullshit to anyone with even a little bit of weightlifting experience, but that didn't bother me or make me think he didn't close a #4. I just knew he didn't squat 460 for 40 reps, continuous or not, Hatfield bar or not.

Once I started trying to close bigger grippers myself, the #4 close on the video did seem a little odd. By that point I had seen all the other #4 closes YouTube had to offer (Paul, Martin, Steve, Tim, etc), and while they are all super impressive feats of grip strength on a level I will only ever dream of being on, they were all from about parallel or deeper, and the mechanics of the Kinney close looked fundamentally different.

I still think he closed it though, personally.

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I still think he closed it though, personally.

me too

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Tommy, I hope you get recovered soon. Injuries suck.

Jedd

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Hope you get better soon Tommy!

Your elbow being injured is detrimental to your AW'ing training.

Don't have even close to the amount of time I need to respond to several points

on your post but we can discuss this when you come over. If this was anyone else

besides a legit grip friend, I wouldn't even bother.

BTW, I'm taking my certified scales to work this morning and weighing about 20 different flywheels

and writing down the #'s and dimensions.

For those wondering where I would get 20 different flywheels is because I work at a transmission shop

that also turns flywheels and we have stacks of flywheels that are no good. Some from tractors down to Honda

Civics.

Word...

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I've always felt that the squat IDEA was legit. the way he talks about the squats, the equipment, plates, etc is all so up in the air that I don't think any of it is definative. on the other hand I think by now it's generally agreed that squatting is a good way to bring up grip.

and get healed up quickly. injuries are always so frustrating.

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Tommy, I bet it took your fat fingers a long time to white that first post ! Heal up bro.

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I have seen the video but don't remember his TTK. Was it homemade like mostly everything else Joe used? If so, the leverage on his may have been a lot different explaining it all. I know, for example, that my homemade SW is different than most. Can't compare apples to oranges. Same with any can crushing, so many different styles so can't compare them. Best forget about everything else (including squats) than the grip machine demonstration and obviously the #4 gripper close.

I did like the reasoning you did Tommy with the poundage Kinney used on his homemade grip machine.

In my mind Kinney certainly closed a seemingly legit #4. Not only closed but dominated it. As we all know grippers vary and it would be foolish to say that what he does with his #4 of unknown difficulty would be impossible. It is not. I don't doubt for a second that a #4 that would measure somewhere between 190 - 200 lbs on RGC could be closed like Kinney did. If the picture of a gripper in CoC-book is indeed Joe's gripper it appears to have a high mount, which would most likely make it easier than a flush mounted gripper. "Easy" #4? I don't think there is such a thing as easy #4, they are all hard, some are just easier and some harder than others. This is not to take anything away from Joe: even if the gripper would have been equal to hardest #3.5's, it is still a crazy gripper feat we are talking about. Don't read this the wrong way and assume that I think Joe's gripper was easy. I just wrote this to explain why I totally believe that what Kinney did is not impossible or fake. It really doesn't have to be fake knowing how grippers vary. This is one way to look at it. Heck it might have been a much harder #4, we really don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if it indeed was. But there's no way to compare directly whet Joe did and what other #4 closers are doing. If that is what some people are trying to do, it is too late for any of that.

I think Joe Kinney should be respected as a pioneer leading the way. Somebody had to be the first.

Get well Tommy.

Edited by Teemu I
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I don't know anything about Kinneys squat claims, but what people count as squats (depth wise) can vary more than grippers :)

Edited by Surmis
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I feel that he did legitimately close the #4, and here's my take on it.

The video of him closing it is questionable, because it has some weirdness about it. But, he put the video out anyway.

Now, if he was faking it in whatever way, he wouldn't want to put out a questionable video as "proof" that he did it, because that would only make it easier for people to say it was a fake.

But if he did actually close it, as I believe, then he wouldn't be worried about this possibility. And he put out the video, so I think it supports that claim.

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Very insightful comments. The holding of 200 lb.on a plate loaded gripper one handed is not that difficult a task and does as mentioned vary along the handle position of the gripper what pressure is required as your point of contact nears the spring. On our G Rex gripper that had an overload step for applying body weight resistance it was regularly done with extra weight added( frame itself was 45 lb) and the body weight ( mine was 280) holding the whole thing up two handed then for a short timed hold switch to one hand keeping the handles closed with the frame(45) body weight (280) and any plates ranging from none to 90. The minimum held was 325. It was hard but not to me an indicator of my or others chances with a #4.

As an aside, when a claimed World record was held by Gary Stich in the Guinness book in 1991 for a one handed plate loaded gripper close of 310 my best ever was 250 strictly done. Bewildered how I could be that far off the mark I did some carefull research and found out later that it was more of a braced standing shrug pull that was used by mr Stich. His grip tested on a Baseline tester was 185lb compared to Mr Brookfields and my marks recorded during a friendly showdown meeting of 245 and 257 at My first AOBS dinner meeting. Brookfield brought the testing device as supplied from a doctor friend. Sometimes comparing a skilled movement with a dynamic or isometric feat is best used as a "general indicator "more than defininte proof on a related verdict of merit. R.Sorin

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There's many ways one can take the way Joe claimed what he said to have done. The #4 has been debated for years. I really can't make up my mind if he did or didn't close the #4. When you get right down to it, Kinney did or did not close the gripper. The only thing for certain, out of all the claims Kinney made (squats, ttk) the #4 is the only thing we know of for certain that could have happened.

One thing I haven't seen people mention here so far, the bar Kinney claims to use for squats was a "Safety Squat Bar" he made.

Yes, the TTK Kinney used was homemade and is smaller than a standard TTK, the leverage is very short compared to what you will find on a normal TTK; towards the end of the "Get A Grip" part, you can see the TTK Joe made.

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Joe

that would be great job I'd love to see what fly wheels weigh I changed several transmissions myself. I never remember them weighing anything near 20 pounds, maybe 10 at most but I can't wait to see your results.

Tommy heal up soon

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I believe Joe did in fact close his #4 gripper. Ironmind in some manner tested his gripper I believe in 2003 and said it was "full strength" .

I would be curious to know how they determine this but the poundage rating, really doesn't take away from his feat and contributions in my mind.

btw, how many 2 finger #3 closers are there?

Kinney was the 1st to perform this as well and I have personally seen Vogt do it. I figure you gotta be at least at the 3.5 range to close the #3 with just two fingers?

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guys, thanks for checking it out. i figured when i saw this on the vid, it was atleast worth a mention. Joe, word.also keep in mind that joes parts he used were all from heavy trucks as stated in the vid. those flywheels are atleast 14-16 inches tall. which is also an indicator of them being from a full size truck or something similar in size. i cant imagine all the times i had to scramble to catch a flywheel after i unbolted it from a crankshaft, that they weighed a mere 10lbs or so. they arent light weight.

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guys, thanks for checking it out. i figured when i saw this on the vid, it was atleast worth a mention. Joe, word.also keep in mind that joes parts he used were all from heavy trucks as stated in the vid. those flywheels are atleast 14-16 inches tall. which is also an indicator of them being from a full size truck or something similar in size. i cant imagine all the times i had to scramble to catch a flywheel after i unbolted it from a crankshaft, that they weighed a mere 10lbs or so. they arent light weight.

and thanks everyone. hopefully this elbow doesnt keep me from training too long..

and Casey, yes, it did look like a bunch of jibberish the first time i wrote it.. :laugh

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I think Joe Kinney should be respected as a pioneer leading the way. Somebody had to be the first.

That sums up things nicely.

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Joe was a HUGE inspiration to me.

I am 100% confident he closed a 4.

More so even now that the Gripboard has been going and watching the levels of some of the current crop of guys.

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I personally believe he closed a legit #4 in accordance with the rules of the time.

Everything that’s been written about him (including the IM article) points to the fact he’s one humble, quietly determined individual (with some pretty awesome grip-problem-solving ability!) This is backed up by those few who have actually met him.

I see no credible reason to doubt the feat – never have and never will. I think TEDS is in the same boat.

Let others choose to believe otherwise if that takes their fancy.

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Is anyone willing to lend me a copy of the new kinney video? id really kike to watch please send me a pm.

Parris

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I hope my post doesn't incite a riot...

Why do a lot of people question Joe's legitimacy? I have watched his newest video numerous times. Yes, there are some things that are far fetched. But I don't see a lot of skepticism surrounding the other #4 closers.

When Nate Holle crushed the GHP LVL 9, a lot of people questioned it. Finally, it was deemed a legitimate close. Nothing has been said since.

If Nate Holle made a video stating that he got strong by tearing 500 phone books in half a day, twice a week, will we raise the BS flag on him and begin questioning whether he's the real deal?

Personally, I believe he closed the gripper solely because I've witnessed the human body achieve unbelievable things. Navy SEALs endure a week during traing where they get like 3 hours of sleep the entire week...and during that time, they will run and march close to 100 miles, paddle boats, and carry the same boats damn near everywhere they go.

Juha, Andrew Durniat, Paul Knight, and Gabriel Sum have MMS'ed #4's...the same as the old cert rules.

Ultra marathon runners run like 50 and 100 mile distances.

Tremendous, yet unbelievable feats of strength...but yet, people do it.

Like Teemu said, someone had to be the first.

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I hope my post doesn't incite a riot...

Why do a lot of people question Joe's legitimacy? I have watched his newest video numerous times. Yes, there are some things that are far fetched. But I don't see a lot of skepticism surrounding the other #4 closers.

When Nate Holle crushed the GHP LVL 9, a lot of people questioned it. Finally, it was deemed a legitimate close. Nothing has been said since.

If Nate Holle made a video stating that he got strong by tearing 500 phone books in half a day, twice a week, will we raise the BS flag on him and begin questioning whether he's the real deal?

Personally, I believe he closed the gripper solely because I've witnessed the human body achieve unbelievable things. Navy SEALs endure a week during traing where they get like 3 hours of sleep the entire week...and during that time, they will run and march close to 100 miles, paddle boats, and carry the same boats damn near everywhere they go.

Juha, Andrew Durniat, Paul Knight, and Gabriel Sum have MMS'ed #4's...the same as the old cert rules.

Ultra marathon runners run like 50 and 100 mile distances.

Tremendous, yet unbelievable feats of strength...but yet, people do it.

Like Teemu said, someone had to be the first.

I think everyone who has posted believe he closed it.

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